DevOps Institute

[EP97] Essential Things to Know About Kubernetes With Haseeb Budhani


In this episode,  Eveline Oehrlich is joined by Haseeb Budhani to discuss all things that are essential in regards to Kubernetes.

Haseeb is a Co-founder and CEO at Rafay Systems. The Rafay Kubernetes Operations Platform is a turnkey offering that automates Kubernetes cluster management, modern application deployment and operations at scale.

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Narrator 0:02
You’re listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SKIL framework.

Haseeb Budhani 0:16
We are, even in this economy, at a point where there’s not enough talent available in this space, who understands and can operate Kubernetes not just bring up the cluster right? Again, these are simple things, like truly running this at an enterprise scale is a very hard scale.

Eveline Oehrlich 0:33
Welcome to the Humans of DevOps Podcast. I’m Evelen Oehrlich, Chief Research Officer at DevOps Institute. The name Kubernetes originates from Greek meaning Helmsman, or pilot. I’ve also heard Kubernetes, often described as the Linux of the cloud. And today is the most popular container orchestration platform for multiple reasons. Kubernetes burst onto the it developer scene in 2014, when Google released it as an open source version of its Borg technology, which which they developed as a way to run 1000s of jobs and applications across multiple clusters and machines. Since then, the technology actually has spread far and wide. It is a key part of managing applications in data via containers, and Gartner projects to reach this technology to reach 944 million by 2024. Today, I’m excited to have with us Haseeb Budhani, who is co founder and CEO at Rafay Systems. Hello, welcome to the podcast. Haseeb.

Haseeb Budhani 1:44
Hi, everyone. Nice to talk to you. And thank you for having me.

Eveline Oehrlich 1:47
Yes, I did some googling you and looked at your of course, LinkedIn profile, you have done a lot of things I had to scroll and scroll and scroll, all these different types of things you will have been doing maybe give us a cliff notes of what have you been up to before you were advice systems, the CEO and founder?

Haseeb Budhani 2:14
Sure, since undergrad, I have been fortunate enough. In fact, while I was I was a senior in college, I did a number of internships in my in my time at USC. And the very last internship I did was with a company that was writing shopping cart software. This is back this fall of 99. Not going to exactly how old I am. That was my senior in college. And yeah, these guys were doing some crazy things, writing this thing called a shopping cart. And they were desperately hiring engineers. And they give me Yeah. And it was a lot of fun. It was it was crazy. So before then I’d worked at Cisco and done a set internship at Cisco and an internship at Ericsson. And I had a sense for how those companies weren’t, these are big companies. But this other company, it was just crazy. These people didn’t sleep. They just kept burning code. And it was awesome. So having once I finished that internship, then I started applying for four full time jobs. I just wanted to work at startups. I just wanted to find companies and I didn’t have the concept or appreciation as a 21 year or for for stock or anything had no idea I cared about was about these these companies. Well, you know, they pay well, they don’t pay as well as a Cisco perhaps. But wow, you get to work on some amazing things. And that’s what I did. My first job out of college was at a start as a startup, which was called Publix. And that solve for single sign on. It’s one of the first companies that were doing single sign on in our industry. So it was not a thing at the time, but they were doing it under another startup. And in the process. I think I just you know, good or bad, I learned a lot of a lot of different things. And that’s been you know, it was a lot of fun. And truly, I believe that had I not done those things, I would not have had the opportunity to work on startups that last 1012 years that I’ve been, you know, in some fashion of founder or whatever. Yeah, just small decisions, or very small decisions can put you on these paths. And I think back a lot to that one specific afternoon when we had this career day. And I decided to talk to these crazy people back at USC and that became you know, my pad had a mountain that hadn’t taken a job at Cisco because I had an offer from Cisco when you when you graduate come work here and I didn’t take it. Yeah, I always worked at startups. Only work at large companies through some pathway positions that have not worked at I’ve never it’s been a long time since I’ve actually applied for a job in a large company. That’s become my my personality but the The most important thing I do here, or I require companies is, as a CEO, my primary job is sales. Like my job is to give our customers the clarity as to why the company exists, why raffia exists? Well, like any other company, when I’ve worked at why does this company need to exist, rather, and how this can make their life better? By getting people to their point of clarity so that they can go, I see how I could use it. There’s nothing like it. I mean, that’s, that’s what drives me. Right? So I enjoy that more than anything else. And particularly if you have the, you know, somewhat of a technical background, I happen to have one. It’s, it’s great, right? So anybody working on new technologies, we all have to understand it. I mean, we can create technologies, we can sell it, it doesn’t really matter. It’s like a tree that fell in the forest, or it doesn’t matter. But being able to build something, and then being able to articulate why. And why should you care? Right, that is, arguably the more important thing. And if you can figure that out, you know, you’re gonna have a lot of fun in this industry.

Eveline Oehrlich 6:05
That leads me to one of the factoids, I found rough AI systems was actually named as one of the hardest one of the 10 Hottest humanity startups of 2022. By CNR. It’s a channel magazine, but that’s great. So two questions for you. What does Rafay Systems do? First, and what has put you on the list of the top 10 startups and like you said, of course, your startup, your passion for startups, probably has something to do with it. But help help our listeners, as those are many of them are developers, I owe, you know, geeks and good geeks. Help them understand what does Rafay Systems do? And how did you make it to this top 10 startups.

Haseeb Budhani 6:56
So Rafay is in the Kubernetes management space. Kubernetes is, oh my god, there’s like hundreds of companies, something in Kubernetes. It’s a very noisy, very busy space. But when I think about what we do, like, fundamentally, we solve a people problem in this company. Every enterprise, we telco, any company that has software that they’re deploying, going forward, it will be containerized, or some function, because they want move fast as a company. And in many cases, majority of cases for companies will pick Kubernetes, as our orchestration engine, you describe Kubernetes has been the fastest growing container orchestration platform out there. It’s it’s the de facto standard, if not the standard presently. But it brings with it a number of complications. Just because you have an orchestration engine doesn’t mean you as an enterprise can consume it easily. You have a number of constituencies inside your company, there’s security, there’s operations as developers, there’s all these other different people and multiple development organizations inside every enterprise. They all have to work together somehow. It’s a people problem, everything is a people problem. And to that end, what you’ve what you’ve attempted to solve for, and it seems like you’ve done a really good job, and you have a really nice roster of customers who use the product daily, is that they’ve thought through what it takes for an enterprise to really build shared services platform for Kubernetes. How do you deliver Kubernetes as a service inside your enterprise? And what that means is not just the material cluster, that’s the easy part, building a cluster or creating a Kubernetes cluster. That’s not the issue. That’s a solved problem. In my mind, the real problem is, who has access to what do we know what they’re doing? Can we do this consistently? Can we can we update patches consistently across our fleet of clusters? can I provide different levels of access to different teams? If certain teams have networking requirements that are different from other network teams? How about how do I make that happen? And how do I do all of this centrally with the right level of governance? This is how enterprises pay. If you solve that problem in the context of Kubernetes, of course, it’s solving a technology problem. But really, you’re solving a people problem. Because the skill set is it takes time to build a skill set. We are even in this economy at a point where there’s not enough talent available in this space, who understands and can operate Kubernetes not just bring up a cluster right? Again, these are simple things like truly running this at an enterprise scale is a very hard skill. Every enterprise is looking for those people and they’re not able to find them. And what we are telling them is we will help you augment your teams with software automation. That’s what we sell. Fundamentally what we’re selling is automation that augments an existing team. And the beauty of the right automation is that a the enterprise they get up and running now. They don’t need to wait a while to hire Are people and then build a platform because we sell them a platform. But to me the more important thing, and this, I think, long term is the right way to think about any technology, the people in the organization that are in our customer, who are not experts at Kubernetes, by working with our product, and by working with our support organization, they actually ended up becoming experts. If you can, in sort of, indirectly or perhaps as a byproduct, get people, you know, sort of, you know, adept at Kubernetes, and all the things that happened around it, right. That is, that is generally good for our for our community, all right, industry, right. So we sell a great product, the enterprise is happy, because they can now move much faster, right? They’re TCO is lower because they can do this today, etc. They don’t need to wait to hire another 510 15 people. But the existing IT engineers and I’m using the word it very loosely, we call them DevOps, right depends on the on the function they have. And then broadly speaking it, they all get to learn this new technology, which is going to be with us for at least 10 years, if not going to be all over time after learn this. And yeah, we take pride in saying that our customers, their engineers, you know, months into our engagement, Rafi, yes, the enterprise is better off, but the engineers are better off to

Eveline Oehrlich 11:20
Yeah, we’ll get to the future, hold that thought on where this is going. Because that I want to dive into that a little bit deeper. But back to what you were just saying. So we do now 22 was a great year for Kubernetes. And we’ve had in our organization, lots of questions for upskilling in this topic. While it was initially viewed as something only really large enterprises could benefit from, we know that it has improved in usability, most likely because as you said, skills have gone up. But there are still some challenges. Now, there are some technical challenges with it. What would you say if you think about your clients, those you speak to every day? What are some of the biggest challenges leveraging Kubernetes these days, and just for right now just focus on the technology in itself? Because I know there’s a few. And then we’ll move further on once we’re done with that towards the you already said that, which is music to my ears, the skills and the skill development and the reduction of toil and all of that? Well, we’ll get to that right now. Let’s just focus and hone in a little bit on the technical challenges you you see.

Haseeb Budhani 12:29
Yeah, absolutely. So many people ask, you know, what does Rafay do, and I use the phrase Kubernetes management, I didn’t use the phrase Kubernetes for the following reason. In my mind, the the biggest player in the Kubernetes space is AWS, they provide an engine or product called COVID PKS elastic Kubernetes. Service, which is, as far as I know, the most used Kubernetes offering right now. So Amazon is the Kubernetes company. So then what is rapid? So once a customer decides I’m going to use maybe Amazon’s Kubernetes, maybe something else, Azure, then they start a journey, where they have to now figure out, okay, how do I automate the provisioning of these clusters? There’s automation for that, and then people who know different types of technologies, right, TerraForm, etc, then I need to understand how to upgrade these things. Okay, there’s automation for that, that you have to kind of figure out, then I need to understand what are the components that need to run on this Kubernetes cluster, so that my applications can consume it. They’re all sort of raw out of the gate. So then you have to learn these things. Then Security says, Well, you really need to make sure the right people have access to the right thing. So we have to think about what based access control and the right level of identity and the right level of access, tie this back to the enterprise Single Sign On system. We should really audit everything. who’s doing what? Okay. All right, let’s go figure that out. While we’re on the point of Kubernetes, is deploy applications. So case, we should have pipelines of some sort, connecting back to maybe GitHub or GitLab. Right? So we got to figure that out. Hey, we have certificates that we’re pushing into these clusters, for, you know, TLS termination, we really should think about some sort of secrets management. Okay, well, let’s go figure that out. And chargebacks, service mesh, network policies and Kubernetes policies, which is different from their policies, and then really, developers need access. So we should really think about it the right developer experience. And so each of these things, and there’s, depending on the situation, there could be many other things to do. And this is a challenge right now in this industry, right? Nobody’s written a book. I’m sure there’s a Kubernetes for Dummies, I’m sure there is. But but it doesn’t talk about what it takes to not just get the toy up and running. But to truly consume this as an enterprise. By that framework, what I just described as a is a function of mine just experience working with customers. But you know, there’s no Bible here. Maybe you should write one, I don’t know. But this is the challenge, right? And we’re and the worry I have right now is that when enterprises jumped into this, they don’t know all these things. Now, could they know, they just started, right? And initially, everything seems easy. What’s the big deal? I just go to the console, I build a cluster, boom, boom, boom, it’s working. See, I can do Kotlin. But then start the real challenge. Right, and now it takes a year, who knows how long it’s going to take depends on the size of the company. And that’s not okay. Right? This is this is a detriment, right? This is going to get in the way of progress. Right. So obviously, when when you see gaps startups come about, and Rafi solve that problem, our job is a, we’re going to make for example, Eks, or Azure Kubernetes, which is AKs, we’re gonna make it out of the box enterprise ready, and we’re gonna help you manage n number of views across clouds if you want. So we solve that specific gap. But but this is a really hot technology promise. So our customers are pretty sophisticated engineers, and they’re all very smart people. This is what I actually really enjoy about this, this specific job. I’m not trying to, I don’t need to convince anybody of the problem, right? We have open conversations, and they get to the point of clarity, I get what the gaps are. But but sometimes they don’t know what the gaps are, unless they experience that. But experiential learning takes time. Right? You’re going to take a year, 18 months to figure out what you don’t know, or what is missing. But your company just launched 18 months, this is the technology issue, right now in our industry. But we’re a small company, relatively speaking. So it’s not like I can I can solve this for everybody. But this is what I think about all day long. By this. Sometimes we as an industry have the you know, we do something that is bad, which is reserved, you know, trivialize the the, you know, the complexity. Everything is easy. Look how easy it is look, one command, and it’s all done. Now, let’s just have real conversations about yes, indeed, this is hard. That’s okay. Because it’s hard doesn’t mean it’s bad. It just means I need to step back and think about how am I going to solve for the complexity? I think it’s better to have that open conversation versus try to kind of, you know, hide this or not hide as hide is a strong word, but just, you know, trivializing this or, or trying to minimalize This is not okay. Right. And I truly believe that this is hurting a lot of enterprises or companies in general, who are starting to join it because they are not aware of how complex that technology is. And if they were, they would make better decisions. And maybe some of them will say, this is not for me, that’s okay. But still, we have to give them that clarity upfront, it’s complex, here are ways to solve it. That will over kind of, you know, at the macro level that will help this industry more than a specific vendor who’s trying to get to a sale. Don’t think like that, I think at the at the macro level, give people that education and that clarity, and I think that’s good for all.

Narrator 18:09
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Eveline Oehrlich 18:56
And I think as technologists, I’ve seen this over and over in conversations with CIOs and VPs where they have been promised by their teams that oh, yeah, this shiny new object can help us immediately to increase flow, velocity, speed, quality, whatever. And those executives promise that onto the partner in business, and six months into the journey or 12 months, maybe longer even then they are all disappointed because it hasn’t achieved the outcome they have been thinking about right. And I think you hit as we say in Germany, the nail right on its head where we sit everywhere. Yeah, we you need to be realistic about setting expectations and making sure that we have these conversations. Sometimes they’re hard. You did mention a few things earlier, around the challenges relative to people and organizations, right you and in your examples, I could hear some of that because we’ve still silos now Add sometimes a bad word because we have experts in certain areas, right? Even though we have dev SEC ops, the security team is not yet as integrated as it should be. And so my curiosity is around people and organizational challenges relative to Kubernetes. In bringing in such technology, what do you see your clients do? And what, what’s what works? Because many of our listeners, I’m sure say, Yeah, okay, we’ve done this, but it fell flat on its head, and it hasn’t failed. Because it’s Cuban Eddie’s which didn’t work. It failed for cultural reasons.

Haseeb Budhani 20:34
Yeah, there’s, there’s some influence we have. And there’s, of course, you know, as a vendor, some influences we don’t have when we get to see a lot of stuff. What one investment we’ve made in this company, which is perhaps unorthodox is that we built a service delivery team, in the company. And the point of this organization is, when a customer says, people do talk to them, we sort of, you know, agree that they should try the product, and then we try the product. And so this is pretty awesome, I should buy it. And then they buy it. And then what, right, just because you did a POC doesn’t mean it’s it’s plugged into your into your company, right? That that’s a process, right? A lot of people have to be educated to bring developers and say, Hey, here’s a, here’s a platform, and you want to think about ABC. So So we saw that happen again, and again, where the where the customers would basically go through this internal process, right, where they try to build a framework, and they try to invite developers and try to sort of, you know, convince the developers internally, hey, don’t do this yourself anymore. It’s waste of your time, here’s a better platform, and we’re gonna give you all the automations. So we decided, you know, what, we’re gonna build a program. We’re just going to do it for you, for you, Mr. Customer. So we build the program. So we kind of walk once the deal is almost done, or whatever, it’s in contracts, we say, hey, look, we have a team, they’re gonna engage with you. And they’re gonna help you get to that finish line, whatever that means to you. Right? It could be bring these 10 teams over to eat gas, perhaps Right? Or whatever, or on prem Kubernetes doesn’t. So we did this for the following reason, because it is hard, right? Like, everything boils down to, this is new. I know that we have been talking about Kubernetes as a community for I don’t even know, whatever, whatever, no, six years something like that sucks. Yeah, I meet customers all the time, who say, Oh, I’ve been working on this for seven years? And I’d actually tell them honestly, seven years ago, I had no idea. I never heard of it. I heard about Kubernetes, five years. All right. Okay. So it’s new, right? Even now, many, many, many enterprises who are working on Kubernetes are probably in the first year of using. So how can they know? Right? These are things that are not obvious, right? How do you build a practice? around Kubernetes? And this is where we see a lot of toil, right? This is where we see projects fail. in companies where they buy something, and then well, nothing happens. Right. And it’s not that the product is good or bad, right? You’ve seen enough of our competitors kind of go through this and we’re learning from, you know, you know, we’re standing on the shoulders of giants, as they say, and we’re learning from others who have come before us. And the biggest mistake, I see the two mistakes I see that have been made in this industry by other vendors. One is that they really focus on Kubernetes and not Kubernetes management. And this is what we discussed earlier in the call, what is the distinction between just a cluster and all the other things that need to happen. And the second one was they did not invest in helping their customers. They relied on, you know, systems integrators or somebody else your problem, go figure. And that’s a hit or miss. Don’t do that be happy to help our customers get up and running. Selfishly, obviously, because you want to make money and you don’t want to see churn. But but more importantly, because our customers spend two, three months doing a POC, they spent money, we want to make sure they get value out of the money, and not just park our solutions on our shelves or whatever. Right? This is something that has been really important. It’s been a massive game changer for us as a company. Because yeah, that customers actually use a product and they’re happy. And happy customers will people who are right, because they’re solving a problem. But this this is I’m telling you the story because all of this ties back to the complexity, the the the unknowns in this space, what do I have to do? Right? And if we’ve seen this enough times are we have enough customers, if we can essentially educate our customers and we don’t charge for this, right? This is part of our our engagement, right? We’re gonna help you come up with a framework that we’ve seen work and I don’t know 10s and 10s of other companies who want to do something else that’s okay. But here’s what others have done. Here’s how their standard operating procedure or center operating model ends up being as it relates to Kubernetes management and you know, please consider taking these actions under reality is most customer said, This is awesome. This is going to make my life easy. I don’t need to invent a process, you are giving me a process. We do this because of the problem you described, which is, yeah, complexity. So many things that are not known people are learning on the job, because well, how can they not happen to know before? Right? We can’t expect them to know these things. Right? Now. It’s possible. They’ve never done this. It’s unfair to expect this, from engineers who tell perhaps a year ago, we’re working on your cloud, or even VMware infrastructure in our data center, we can’t expect them to become PhDs in Kubernetes, or that’s completely unfair. We have to help. Right? And we do. So I love

Eveline Oehrlich 25:43
it. So there’s tons of knowledge transfer during those projects, I’m assuming or do during the activities. Now I’ve heard, we’ve heard platform engineering. And we’ve seen quite a few organizations adopt platform engineering, when we did a survey on sre. We saw that a very, let’s say, not predominant yet, but a very popular way to shape and frame an organization. And then the other term is developer experience. Those are two terms, which every day we get a question on. Okay, how do we start? What do we do? I would like you to just kind of reflect a little bit on the two terms, developer experience, of course, and then the platform engineering, particularly there, maybe drill down a little bit into the pros and cons, what do you see, relative to platform engineering?

Haseeb Budhani 26:40
Yeah, so our customer, in pretty much every account is a platform engineer, to be sent to. And we look for them. Sometimes the name of the team perhaps is not, not from engineering. I mean, you know, they may call themselves infrastructure engineering, or cloud operations or something, but but they are the ones who are responsible for delivering, essentially, these platform ties, concepts, and Kubernetes is one of them, because they don’t want to have and maybe we can take a step back and think about why is this even happening? Why does a baton exist, which, which is a, which is a really interesting thing to think about what has happened beforehand, at least in the context of Kubernetes, it applies elsewhere, as well, I’m sure it’s clearly applies to cloud, what’s happened is some development team, they decide, hey, these container things are pretty awesome. They allow us to move very fast. So you know what, we’re gonna do this, we’re just gonna do this container saying and they go to it, or at that time, maybe cloud engineering, and this entity isn’t anything like Kubernetes. And they probably say, No, this is not something that we provide today, they go, no problem, I’ll just do it myself. But these developers essentially go to the cloud and their developers, but they’ll figure it out. They go provision infrastructure, Kubernetes. And they now run their applications. Okay, now a second team shows up and says, Well, this is really cool, we should do the same. And then a third one. Now, what’s going to happen is the skill set is going to perhaps vary between these and teams. But here’s the most important thing. You are now missing resources, by definition, because three different teams are doing business, in a sense is not good for your business. Somebody should do this, if indeed multiple teams needed, it should happen separately, is simple. It should happen centrally, why would you have every team do this, because then the processes are, are not standardized. We no one will use one methodology and one will use another and why let them do the thing you pay them for, which is not Kubernetes. It’s the application, let them write the app, you do the Kubernetes for them. In comes about from engineering. But now the platform engineering organization is not just solving for, I just need an app deployed, they have to solve for the other enterprise problems that we talked about earlier. Right, because they’re part of the IT function. And they have to think in terms of risk and compliance and security. All these other things have to be thought about as well that perhaps the developers will not prioritized because they want to write their application. This is why platform engineering teams exist. And these are the customers that we sell to and we make them successful. But here’s the thing, we have to really understand who is our customers customer? So our customers platform engineering, who is their customer, the developer, if there are no developers who want to use containers and Kubernetes. Well, there’s no need for any of this stuff. Right? What is the point of Kubernetes? If no, nobody’s ever going to run things, right? So the developer has to actually be really happy with the experience that they get when they interact with this new platform from vendor x. Right. Let’s not bring it off into this. So it behooves us to understand what is the developer need? Because if they’re not happy, well, end of the day, there is no sale here. So we have to invest time in this. And we have, what do they need? What is their pipeline of choice? What is their experience expectation around debugging of applications? What is the experience expectation around self service, right, some things they want to do themselves. And sometimes they want to do a lot of things themselves, and the company is okay with it. Sometimes the company makes a decision, these things platform or do these other things developers can do. And look at turns out, we have to be in the midst of that, if we are not, we’re very, very ignoring, actually the most important constituent here, the developer, who is not our direct customer, and that’s okay. But he’s our customer, customer, she or they are our customers customer. And we have to understand what it takes for the platform team to make their life better. And we spend a lot we spend inordinate amount of time, try to make that better and better and better. So today, we be proud a lot of capabilities to make developers really happy in our platform. And we continue to make investments like as an example var, spending a lot of time looking at something like backstage that I’m sure you’re sure you’ve seen backstages? Or is an overnight sensation in our industry to understand what does it take to help teams Aaron backstages service in house and then be, you know, make it easy for them to use the Kubernetes or other plugins that they need to backstage and then allow them to build their own dashboards with backstage? Yeah, this is like the two words you describe map like from engineering and developer experience. These are the two equally weighted, you know, core tenets of our platform. If they’re not, we’re never going to be a lasting company. You have soccer balls.

Eveline Oehrlich 31:51
Right, beautiful. I have two more questions. One is technical one is fun. So let’s do the technical first, and we’ll go to the fun. You alluded a little bit to the future of Kubernetes. So if you have to bring out that crystal ball, what do you see in the Kubernetes future?

Haseeb Budhani 32:11
I think Kubernetes is going to be here for a while. So so the future of applications, or any any modern application, you know, in the near term is going to have in my opinion, you know, some functions component like a lambda component in the application or some microservices, there’ll be some container containers. And then there’ll be some managed services, like they’ll be using rds, and AWS or whatever, right? So this was maybe these Kafka, these are services that sort of outside of you. And my view of the world is that the right infrastructure management offering, I said, infrastructure management, like Kubernetes is going to help customers orchestrate all of these things. You must, because you have to help truly help somebody, you know, deploy and operate an application and then enable developers to do this pilot. So platform and developers, we’re going to be the two incidents. Today, RAF is a Kubernetes company. Five years from now, it should not be recognized. Fibers mineral raw fish should be a modern application infrastructure company. Right.

Eveline Oehrlich 33:27
Yeah, holistically, you’re saying I love that the holistic management of infrastructure, towards agility and whatever else is necessary at the organization’s.

Haseeb Budhani 33:39
I think that’s where the mark is going for sure. And you have to you have to go there to work today.

Eveline Oehrlich 33:45
Yep. Excellent. Now, the fun question, what do you do? Yes. What do you find? If you don’t talk to customers, or you don’t think about all these very geeky things? What do you do for fun?

Haseeb Budhani 33:59
Who has the time? We have two kids. You have a 13 year old and a 10 year oldso there’s enough to this that they have that we sort of you know, recently as you drive them around, right, that’s your job. Right. You’re the chauffeurs are here to bear. You know, we, you know, my son was 10 the a few months ago decided he’s when I was a kid, I used to play squash. He didn’t like the like badminton. As a family big to play badminton at Stanford. I live in Menlo Park seven blocks away from Stanford. Do that, you know, these are the kinds of things we do right. Everything is outside of work. It’s the family. I mean, why do we do all this work? Why do why do we work this hard? It’s because of the family so you know, all the rest of the time goes.

Eveline Oehrlich 34:46
Excellent. That sounds like me. I spend a lot of time on the soccer fields with my two daughters. When Yeah, lots of watching soccer and feeling sad about myself that I’m so old and I couldn’t play it anymore.

Haseeb Budhani 34:59
Soccer last time I played I’m in my mid 40s minor. My knees will give out.

Eveline Oehrlich 35:08
I know. Now we’re watching it on TV and the last this last session or the last championship was quite exciting. Anyway, this has been great has said thank you so much for joining me today on humans of DevOps podcast. I really appreciate all of your insights and I know our listeners do that as well. Again, we’ve been talking to Haseeb Budhani, co founder and CEO of Rafay Systems. Humans of DevOps Podcast is produced by DevOps Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia Papp and Brendan Lay. I’m the Humans of DevOps Podcast executive producer evolutionarily, if you would like to join us on a podcast, please contact us at humans of DevOps podcast at DevOps That’s a mouthful. I know. I’m Eveline Oehrlich. Talk to you soon.

Narrator 36:01
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