• Continuous Change
• Cyber Basics 101
• Executive Advisory to C-Suite, Small Businesses

Transcript

Narrator 0:02
You’re listening to the Humans of DevOps Podcast, a podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SKIL framework.

Hazel Chappell 0:16
So that was really, I will say, a turning point. It was actually a knife in the heart for me, and I decided just to look at what is locally around me and what how can I actually have that work life balance, which was hugely important to me.

Eveline Oehrlich 0:33
Hello, welcome to the Humans of DevOps Podcast. I’m Eveline Oehrlich, Chief Research Officer at the DevOps Institute. Our topic today is Humanizing Change, Innovating Health and Care During Digital Transformation. Thank you again for listening to us and thank you for being here. Today we have with us Hazel Chapell. I think that is how you say your name Hazel. Is that correct?

Hazel Chappell 1:02
Yes. If that’s the way you want it, that’s fine or chapel, whatever.

Eveline Oehrlich 1:06
Oh, chapel, alright. I want to make sure because sometimes, I used to be sometimes a little bit of fun and when people say my last name, so chapel, alright, Hazel Chapell. Great. Let me give everybody here a little bit of an introduction of what about Hazel, and then we just get right into it. So Hazel is a women business owner entrepreneur and moved to North America years ago today. She’s actually in Austin, Texas. Now in a pre talk Hazel and I have figured out that she actually spent her Christmas over in Europe, where she doesn’t reside anymore, but she has family. And I actually moved and spent my Christmas over in the US so we probably crossed each other across somewhere on the pond Hazel through during the time. So she is in the business of health care and biomedicine with 20 years and more experience, where she headed up ventures across Europe to include the UK, Sweden, Spain and Ireland and has a very diverse network in health care and biomedicine across America and globally. Hazel is the CEO and founder of ich HCA health Incorporated, which provides consulting and advisory services around three key areas. continuous change, which of course is something we’ll talk a little bit about cyber basics one on one, and she provides Executive Advisory to C suite and small businesses. She’s also an adviser to Austin’s Dell med Health Innovation catalyst program, where she reviews and contributes to a broad spectrum of entrepreneurial innovative initiatives. She enjoys speaking on a variety of topics pertinent to healthcare and biomedicine with a key theme of digital security in her delivery. And that’s really how I found her when I was looking around for some experts in digital and particular verticals. So Hazel again, thank you. She’s passionate about reducing risk to businesses and keeping businesses safe. She has recently been a guest Pam speak with European Connected Health Alliance on the topic of data culture around cybersecurity Ireland I actually was listening to that was quite good. Additional asleep she sorry. Additionally, she was presenting educator to senior dexus Texas data leaders on digital transformation includes leadership. She is also a member of a variety of topics and areas let me mention a few. Bio North Texas, Texas interoperability collaborative. Oh my goodness Oh, West Austin and awarded Alaskan batch. England’s digital leadership network health informatics Society of Ireland and a few other things such as the H I M S. S. Austin chapter. Welcome to our podcast, Hazel.

Hazel Chappell 4:08
Thank you, Eveline. Appreciate you having me here.

Eveline Oehrlich 4:11
Yes, delighted to have you. And I love that we both have different accents. So this will be a lot of fun because we can challenge each other. I love Irish. Of course. I love the Irish accent. And I used to work at a company where they had a lot of Irish folks. And sometimes we made we laughed at each other when we said certain words but I promise I will not laugh at you. And if you promise that you will not laugh at me either. So the first thing is QA. Am I saying that correct? Yes, that is correct. It means water in Irish. I saw that and found that out in your podcast or webinar you did. Tell us more about the name of your company.

Hazel Chappell 4:58
Sure. are. So it’s good is the Irish word translated from the? Well, it’s it’s the Irish word translated, meaning water. Now it is actually spelled differently in the Irish language. UISCE but I did really think about how that would be actually read. So I went with the phonetic spelling of it. And while it means water, which is one of the basic needs of life for health, it’s important that it would be clean water. And I just thought it was pertinent to the business that I mean, and how for health and wellness.

Eveline Oehrlich 5:41
great idea. Love that. If I need a company name, I will reach out to you now, how did you get into an involved in healthcare? Give us a little bit about your journey?

Hazel Chappell 5:52
Sure. And so from a business point of view, I had been working internationally in technology, and also within the financial industry. And at the time, I was in London, and I had worked in Bloomberg and Reuters. And where I then was currently in Merrill Lynch, and my daughter, who was turning two at the time said to me, Mom, when are you ever going to have breakfast with me? Because you can imagine within that industry, the hours and the days are long. So that was really I wouldn’t say a turning point. It was actually a knife in the heart for me, being a mom, and I decided just to take that step and look at what is locally around me. And what how can I actually have that work life balance, which was hugely important to me. So it was really on the back of that, that I ended up getting the opportunity within what’s called a trust in England. So it’s one of the large ecosystems. And that’s how I fell into healthcare within the world of what’s now known as electronic patient record and the beginning of the digital world. So that was over 20 years ago.

Eveline Oehrlich 7:07
Wow. Yeah, being a mother myself. similar challenges, I decided to shift from a technology vendor into becoming an industry analyst and joined Forrester in 2006. Little did I know that I would be gone 70% traveling. And I remember my kids saying the same thing. Mom, when are you ever going to be here for my soccer game? So yes, great, great, great change for you, in my case, wasn’t that great. But I know my daughter is so successful, despite the fact that I’ve been traveling. Now, as I mentioned, I’ve been an analyst for quite some time and still function. Besides being Chief Research Officer at the DevOps Institute, I still do quite a lot of work around researching different topics. One, of course, is to digital transformation. I heard you say I think it was a net webinar, I was watching The Digital Transformation actually started in 2003. In healthcare, I actually was, was quite blown away by that. But I believe you because you are there, I am not in the vertical. So when you step back and kind of look at the topic of digital transformation, and when we think about the maturity of zero to five, like zero, non existent and five, it’s like high maturity. Where would you say, the health care in general, I know this is hard, because there’s so many different aspects, but in general, from a top down, where in terms of maturity is healthcare today, even you are doing global work, maybe highlight some of the regions, maybe Americas or North America versus Europe? I think that would be really great for us, our listeners, because some of them might be in the health care vertical.

Hazel Chappell 9:01
Sure. So I will just also pick up on you know, that date 2003. And certainly listeners would say no, actually, it started before then and which I would agree I joined in 2002 or something like that. And I guess really the the movements slash momentum had already kickstart for a variety of reasons. When I was working in the UK. It was about having one patient one record due to a number of significant, I suppose patient safety incidents. And then of course, 911 came along and one could argue that that certainly was the accelerator of the need to have a more digital footprint and certainly within healthcare. So I guess I’m one of those people that has actually come across or you know, worked across the spectrum from the digitization the digital lives. nation, and where we are in terms of digital transformation. So if you take those three angles from us, certainly, I was heavily immersed within the going from paper, you know, what was called in, and certainly in England, the Lord George records, in other words, the physical paper piles, right through to digitizing those. I feel, I guess, proud and informed and been able to take lessons learned from, from all those areas really, and the journey that you mentioned, from where we are today, ironically, and I will look ahead from a geographical point of view. So there are pockets of areas, certainly within Europe. You know, I will say in Ireland, within England, and certainly going abroad that are still actually paper records, and certainly within child health. That is very much the case and looking at how to integrate the digital health aspect there. It is really, you know, since since my arrival here in America, I can see that digital is the way there are a few areas that aren’t. And that’s just to my, I suppose linear lens, if I may put it like that. So and then, of course, then you take countries like Australia that are doing actually, you know, massive transformation. Now, I will actually roll back as well to Ireland and say that, I sat on one of the government advisory committees about as an expert within the need to implement or to have changed at the forefront of their digital transformation journey. And it was my privilege and honor to sit alongside that then CIO, Richard corporate, who, in my opinion, is that local, global icon for digital transformation. So it is, there are areas that, you know, certainly been involved in HIMS, as well and Health Information Management Society, they support it and help accelerate that digital maturity from hospital providers and organizations to achieving certain levels. And what that actually brings about whether it is to have full what we call digital transformation and interoperability of data, but that can actually mean a different things subject to what the technology is enabling as well. So I guess really to summarize, everlean, there is, there is so much more to do, I would say maybe that we’re in a two to three, I have no doubt that there would be people who would actually, you know, who are listening into this and go, Hey, you know, actually, I think we’re a little bit further afield. And that would be within those areas pockets, which yet, again, is the siloed. There’s the siloed locations, which can be the challenge to achieving what the absolute ultimate objectives of digital transformation is about.

Eveline Oehrlich 13:17
So yes, I’m sure we have some folks who would say one or the other, right, in terms of the maturity, but it is a fairly complex, as you said, a topic with many facets and many angles. And but I think, as you said to to whatever to be three, I think that indicates that, from your perspective of a practitioner and an expert that are still more to go. I did look this morning quickly at the agenda in Davos, as you I’m sure are familiar with the most beautiful place in Switzerland, hopefully they have some snow and they can ski. Many leaders are visiting each other and with each other to make some challenges or to address some challenges. I did not see a lot around particular verticals, but I will have to research again for our listeners, take a look at the W’s and what’s happening there as always very good. World Economic Forum has always very, very good content and knowledge and details around digital transformation. All right now, I was intrigued by your talk on humanizing change. It was really music to my ears because we at DevOps Institute are really focusing on the human aspects of, of these different modern operating models such as DevOps, agile and so on. And so I have a quote, I hope this is correct. You said humanizing change is a vital part of any organization’s digital transformation. Taking a people centric approach has time and time again shown to reduce risk. minimize cost and foster a culture that embraces change not only now, but also in the future. In an environment of rapid and current unprecedented change, we provide the glue that holds people together in challenging times to deliver critical outcomes. So don’t overlook your organization’s most important asset before conducting digital transformation. This is absolutely beautiful. I do know and Gartner and others say that the challenges around digital transformation is really the culture. So you’re hitting, as we say, in Germany, the nail right on its head, tell us a little bit more about this humanizing change? What do you mean by that give us a little more color, because again, I’m sure many of the listeners are intrigued by your statement and want to understand more about humanizing change.

Hazel Chappell 15:57
Sure. So I may get a little bit passionate here. For me, so go with me on this. So to me, I suppose as it infers humanizing is really is all about the people. I found when I was implementing electronic health records across any ecosystem, it wasn’t about the technology, we as humans are individuals. So whether there are commonalities that we have, at the end of the day, we are intrinsically individuals. So when I talk about the people, it can be people in a variety of, I suppose it can be broken down. So it can be actually your customers, it can be the end users, it can be the patients. But when I talk about people as well, I also talk about the mindsets. And from that thing, you have to look up behaviors. Now, a great person I’ve admiration for is Dr. Bob Wachter, he was brought in by the NHS in England  to actually assess how to improve the National Health Service in England. And he spoke about people can be the problem, but people can also be the solution. And that, clearly, the fact that I’m, you know, recounting his phrase, and certainly has resonance to with me, in essence, in my opinion, and experience, people, things don’t work unless you involve the people it is, you know, to actually have them engaged to actually have them motivated to have them informed, to have them at what I call the core of which is why that we have, you know, user centric or human centric approaches, is invalid to actually accelerate or to expedite and achieve on those goals that an organization has actually set out. And speaking with some organizations, you know, certainly within the last two years, as well, where we’re exactly as I say, in an era of unprecedented change, and the few top cracy of work, when you take all of that, it is really, absolutely important to ensure that people are engaged, that they trust that they are motivated. And what does that that actually look like? Or are we actually looking at humans, and extrapolating their, their true skills that perhaps aren’t used within the workplace? Well, that’s where we can then look at, you know, costs and the other aspects as well, reducing risk to, to meet the business needs. And I’ll give you another incident, actually, if you take a cybersecurity takedown or an incident, people look at the technology and they start looking at the logs and see why this happened. And absolutely, you know, and I will take the example and I’m sure many people across the country who are hospital systems have been brought down as well, to focus on the needs of the workforce and ensure that they are well looked after that they are kept there working around the clock to ensure that the system is kept up for patients and you know, for the health of patients, etc. And sometimes that can actually be forgotten that it’s not just about the technology we need to focus on, whether it’s the security people, whether it’s actually the clinicians, how do we ensure the continuous care of the patients and how do we support the workforce to help us resolve the issue in hand?

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Eveline Oehrlich 20:24
You know, I just remembered a data point, which was brought up by John Clifton, who is the CEO of Gallup, they did a research project. And they have been doing this for quite a while now, I think I want to say maybe 10 years, and I just did a podcast with John Clifton as well. He said that is 22 findings in the 22 findings on engagement, only 21% of people are engaged today at their workplace. I found that sad, but at the same time, I do understand why. Because there is some reasoning in that report. But again, I find that really, really sad, and particularly in the vertical, where you are, and what is so essential, particularly after the pandemic, and what is in front of us relative to all of that, that engagement from both the folks or from all the focus right, has to be addressed. And so really quite, quite a motivational and quite a passionate topic. So I’m glad you have passion. And I’m looking forward to additional conversations on that. Now, as technologists, as you said, Yes, human humanizing change, and we need to make sure that we engage and make sure we have engaged folks. What do you see in terms of challenge across the humanizing change, specifically in health care? I mean, let me just read really quickly, a couple of things I experienced recently, my father in law, had to be in a hospital the last three days for a surgery. And that was a very pleasant engagement, because the people there were extremely focused on let’s call it patient experience, were two months ago, in a different hospital, the experience was completely different to different carriers, or I don’t know what the actual languages but to providers, I think, is the right word, right from both hospitals. One was more. I don’t know, just very different. I don’t want to go into religion, because actually, one was a religious provider, which was just a very pleasant experience. What are some challenges you see across humanizing change within healthcare?

Hazel Chappell 22:58
That’s a great question. And I can take it from different angles, if I may. It’s from a business point of view, and certainly within what I would call the senior management and leadership suite, and specifically within healthcare, and I say that rather than actually maybe more of the Biomedicine or life sciences part is actually the lack of translation. And what do I mean by that when you actually take a C suite, you have chief medical officer, you have Chief Operating Officer, you have chief digital information off, so you’ve chief, you know, Chief, CX, Chief of chiefs, let’s say. So without actually breaking that time, you’ve technology of operational, you’ve, you know, executive, and then of course, you’ve actually got the clinicians in hand. And if you take, for example, a topic like cybersecurity, which I will add as well is not as prevalent, and as regular on the agendas, as I would like to see. But that’s another area of passion for me. But when you take in somebody is presenting that language to the board. It is absolutely my experience. And I’m very confident in saying that, that the information that is communicated is not always clear. I’m actually what does it mean by actually communicating this information? And what is the impact of that information being communicated as well? And that is where that whether it is actually we want we have a digital transformation program that is starting up what does this look like? The need to have somebody there translating and understand is absolutely essential. And you know, I had a great conversation with a leader from the Department of Defense yesterday and he absolutely Nuclear agreed with me because even from his world, and going into commercial world as well, it is an area that, as I say, in my opinion, is a key challenge. Also, as well that, you know, I mentioned communications as well, my experiences, what is really communication look like? So if you take, I use the analogy of cleanliness between naught and five, you have somebody who thinks clean is good, or two or three. And then you have the other end of the scale five, which is perhaps maybe a little bit OCD. Communication is like that as well, though, when somebody thinks that communicate effectively, actually isn’t ever measured how it’s understood, or is it expected that it is understood? And what does that look like, within an organization, I was brought in to spearhead a failing program at one point. And one of the first things that when I looked at it was really, you know, and you spoke earlier about workforce not being engaged. And, and it was really, because they didn’t know what the leadership were trying to communicate, they were only told from their direct manager, that this is the instruction that needs to be done. But having the overarching vision and objectives was was not very clear. In terms of as well, I was, you know, the hairs just went up in my arms when you said, I believe about the patient experience. I’m a patient as well. And I can categorically say, that irrespective of what provider system, my goodness, it is really, you know, sad actually, that how the patient walks in the door. And the level of interaction is very, very impersonal. And it really takes a variety of, I suppose people to understand that everybody is a patient, there are global leaders across the way who have certainly transformed themselves because of a loved one or exactly to your point that you’re able to now tell the story around a family member with a good or and thankfully, it was a very good experience. And sometimes that can actually be the catalyst for leaders to really become more empathic and humble, irrespective of the mentoring or coaching or training that they should be getting. And my question is, well, why aren’t you like that to begin with, because we all want to be treated as how we would like to be treated, and how we should be treating other people in our everyday lives. You know, you mentioned

Eveline Oehrlich 27:52
two key words, which are quite important. Of course, one is communication. And I would add, actually collaboration. And the second is empathy, as part of our work. And as part of my work at the DevOps Institute, for the last five years, we have looked at skills. And you know, of course, we look at technical schools, and we look at classes, skills, and framework skills, and all those wonderful things. But we also look at human skills, we used to call them soft skills. But as you know, there’s nothing soft about soft skills, they’re really hard human skills are hard, and the top two must have are communication and collaboration, and then empathy. But at the same time, while these are the top must have skills, those are the biggest skill gaps across, wait about 3000 data data points this year, which to me, again, is for the five years or five years, now we have these two gaps, or there’s others. But these are two key gaps. And I do think your point on leaders and leadership, understanding and having the right perspective of what is necessary, is something which hopefully, we will see from leaders in the future, in this year and further on. We cannot continue this way. That’s what I would say.

Hazel Chappell 29:19
And I would agree and if I can just pick you up and drill down a little bit more on that. So empathy to me is around actually also having the emotional intelligence and that to me is a very inherent skill or trait or personality within somebody. Now, we can all learn and we can read books and understand it. But if I actually take as well, you know, the book, what they don’t teach you at Harvard Business, School, and empathy and emotional intelligence is one of those things for me as well that when you take where certain leadership are at a certain Ah, you know are our behaviors can be a little bit, I suppose, solidified, that can be ingrained on us. So suddenly to have to turn and pivot to become this empathic leader, and to actually become more humble, is a big challenge and an uphill battle for those leaders who are currently in place. But it is, I totally agree with you something that has to happen to meet the demands of the way that the challenges that we’re encountering today, because our Gen Z, and our, you know, millennials are coming in, and they sometimes habit, so whether it’s through their dyslexia, whether it’s through who they are, just as people are with their global, you know, experience of becoming travelled around and more knowledgeable, but actually, they become more wise with that knowledge as well, way ahead of our time. That that is something that I see is going to change a lot further down the line. And I know that couldn’t be perhaps a contesting comment of mine.

Eveline Oehrlich 31:04
And I see that with my daughters as well, as I was said I was visiting with them in the US with Christmas, and both of them are professionals. One is an architect. The other one is an analyst for like, they say that apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. She’s in service management, actually. But But both have very different EQs than what I would say I had when I was their age, right, the 27 and 25. So absolutely, I think the generational challenges there will be will we who are I’m a baby boomer, can we learn? Will we be open enough to adopt? I see that DevOps Institute as well, we have many young folks who I can learn from, and I enjoy working with them, because I’m open, but not everybody can be and will learn. And that gets me to another question. And I know we are. This one is a little bit around learning. continuous learning is something we talk a lot about, and a lot of the HR or learning and development folks aware and familiar with that. And in this learning also is a key principle within DevOps. Is that applied within the healthcare industry?

Hazel Chappell 32:18
Oh, my goodness, absolutely. Yes. And I would actually say certainly within biomedicine and beyond as well, why because it’s bad staying relevant. There is so much innovation, as we know, that’s already there, that’s coming down the stream as well. And it’s actually about, we need to be prepared for the unexpected. So whether it is actually you know, here in Austin as well, you’ve got the army futures command, who are looking at innovative ways of for out in, you know, for the health of their soldiers out in the warfield. And that is actually happening within healthcare as well. So even if you take diabetes, how it was treated years ago, and where it is now, there is a need for clinical continuous learning. But in terms of businesses, well, you know, I mentioned earlier about few takasi, and workforce, and how are we learning and adapting, you know, I was even looking at the other day, the 20 to 50 new buzzwords of 2020 3am. I balk in one way, because in some cases, we have to use those words in our daily deliveries or presentations or whatever, because other people will be using them. But at the same time, I’m a big fan of just keeping it plain English. But when we take, you know, web three and Metaverse and blockchain from a technology point of view, it is important even for somebody like myself, who is not Well, shall we say, let me put it the inverse. There are the technology experts out there, there are the clinical experts out there. But it is important that I have an understanding of what this is about, to be able to do the advisory and consulting as well, you know, within the the area of business that I that I’m in. So continuous learning as well, then from an individual point of view view is always about being self curious. You know, I have actually created this diagram and this is purely from my experience of getting unexpectedly involved in cybersecurity through an absolutely awesome leader, Charles Archer, and it was actually the exposure to cybersecurity, that helped to I suppose, develop my curiosity and in turn that motivated me. So when I look at that And then the motivation continues my curiosity to keep going and become cyclical. So there, I’ve approached your questions from different aspects. But inherently, you know, I would always encourage somebody to learn continuously. And I guess really, you know, an aberration of mine is when people talk about retiring or don’t retire, or shall we say they step back from their current job at a certain age, so nobody, I know lots of people who never retire, continuous learning for them, it’s just, you know, it’s fantastic to actually see it in the atrium for the health of the mind, for actually, to my point in staying relevant. So whether it’s technology, I’ve had the opportunity to be involved in an absolutely phenomenal effort here within North Austin. And it’s about, you know, supporting the age and the health and prevention of as well. So those are different factors from a health point of view. And then also as well, as I say, innovation is coming down the line. So whether it is something from cell and gene therapy, right through to two technologies. I will go back to why I’m talking about continuous change. It’s not going to stop.

Eveline Oehrlich 36:20
Yeah. So you said curiosity and excitement. We do know and read about, you know, quiet quitting, and burnout and all of that. And I don’t want to belittle it, because it’s existing. But as we have a lot of different listeners from the digital natives, to Gen Z’s to Baby Boomers to maybe some folks who are, as you said, stepping back, I love that, because I don’t really like the word retirement, I’ll never will retire, I’ll just step back. But given that there is also lots of curiosity, and you said you fell into the cybersecurity because you were curious, what would you advise some of our listeners to think do or take on to enter the healthcare industry? Because the healthcare industry vertical, not just in the US, not just in Europe, across the globe, is essential for all of us. Because as you said, we need healthy people we need, we need a healthy planet, but without healthy people, we can’t have a healthy planet. So a couple words for some advice, what should people think about when they are due when they want to enter the healthcare industry?

Hazel Chappell 37:27
So if I may ask you a question everlean. So that I can answer your question more articulately? Do you mean from a technology point of view? Or actually from the care aspect?

Eveline Oehrlich 37:38
Both actually technology? Of course, you know, that’s important. Like you said, cybersecurity, and whatever else is in there. So maybe we go there first. And then from the, the, the other, the other perspective, what type of people? What do I need to think about what skills should I have? And how should I get in? What What should I learn? How should I prepare? And yes,

Hazel Chappell 38:02
so I guess contrary to what you might think, I’m a great believer, I’m being cynical, but myself there. I’m a great believer in talking to people and seeking out the right people who can give their point of view. And, you know, I have a daughter who’s lucky now to what area of her career is she going to go in, and one can have an inherent instinct of maybe what good could look like or what their skill set could be, you know about, but it’s also in actually talking to people and understanding, or sometimes unexpectedly, it’s having that experience that can really just cement where their area is about having the experience, you know, this is why they’re interns out there are internships I say, as well to give that experience, volunteer some time, you know, so whether it’s first aid or whether it is actually just I you know, what can what can I do? There was a point in my career where I wasn’t sure did I actually want to go into catering so I just literally took I took a bone to Pro to rang up the top hotels in Dublin and asked can I go and join in their kitchens for a day, I was lucky that I was actually able to join the executive chefs and one of Dublin’s top hotel. And to this day, if somebody gave me it to me as a present, it is the most invaluable because I had the experience the understanding and to really make that decision. So now cooking is my passion rather than actually my my my way of living. But so that’s what I would say just reach out to people don’t be afraid to, you know, the right people will want to help and actually support the younger people coming about or whether it is it’s actually just a complete change of career and industry in some capacities, because now, a lot of days I see for example, when I take organizations and look at their cyber posture, you know, one on one, shall we say, it is actually industry agnostic, it is using those commonalities. And then actually, how can you match and transplant and certainly my experiences, there will be one person who you will always remember their words and their sayings and maybe you know, one day become their mentor as well.

Eveline Oehrlich 40:35
Beautiful. All right. I have one more question for you completely different. You already mentioned something you’re doing for fun, which is cooking, but what else do you do for fun Hazel?

Hazel Chappell 40:47
Oh, wow. Now I have a big smile on my face. So I it can be anything from half a day I flipped my daughter because we literally and this is a very Irish saying when we’re together having fun, we can be to tittering twits to me laughter is absolutely is you know, raises the endorphins and I am so so blessed that I get that with my daughter so so much. And when I have fun, am I kind of need to, you know, I suppose clear a few cobwebs. I love doing tennis. So to me sport in any capacity, even if you’re not sporty is good for the mind and the soul. It can be very relaxing as well. I’m a little bit of a social butterfly, and it goes back to I am very blessed to have good people around me that yet again and I’m unexpectedly finding myself saying that laughter fun humor is is how I expel an intern. Have fun. And also remaining curious.

Eveline Oehrlich 41:58
If you ever get close to Stuttgart Germany, please ring me up. I’d love to hang out with you. I invite you to come and we’ll have fun and laugh together. We have been talking to Hazel Chapelle, global thought leader within the healthcare industry. Hazel, thank you so much for joining me today on humans of DevOps. And for our listeners humans of DevOps podcast is produced by DevOps Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia Papp and Brendan Lay. I am the Humans of DevOps Podcast Executive roducer Eveline Oehrlich. If you would like to join us on a podcast, please contact us at Humans of DevOps podcast at DevOps institute.com. I’m Eveline Oehrlich talk to you soon.

Narrator 42:49
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