Dan Schawbel is a New York Times bestselling author and the Managing Partner of Workplace Intelligence, an award-winning thought leadership and research agency focused on the world of work. Dan is the bestselling author of three career books: Back to Human, Promote Yourself, and Me 2.0. Through his companies, he’s conducted dozens of research studies and worked with major brands including Amazon, Deloitte, American Express, GE, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, Virgin, IBM, Coca Cola, and Oracle. Schawbel is also the host of the 5 Questions podcast, where he interviews world-class humans like Matthew McConaughey, Richard Branson, Condoleezza Rice, Reed Hastings, Chelsea Handler, and Neil deGrasse Tyson.
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Dan Schawbel 0:16
During COVID, there was a 300% or more increase in digital scales. Why? Because with people working remote, you needed those digital skills in order to continue to work. With these new ways of working, it impacts what skills are more or less important and things are changing really fast.
Eveline Oehrlich 0:33
Welcome to the Humans of DevOps Podcast. I’m Eveline Oehrlich, Chief Research Officer at DevOps Institute. Our podcast title today is “Tips from an Expert: Essential Reasons for Upskilling. Upskilling, reskilling, continuous learning, training, are really really hot topics and we at DevOps Institute have done some significant work in this topic area for the last five years. And while I am knee deep, or actually I should say neck deep in the research for the upcoming 2023 upskilling it report. I am thrilled to have with me an expert, then Chevelle. Hey, Dan, how are you?
Dan Schawbel 1:16
So happy to be here with you.
Eveline Oehrlich 1:18
Excited, I’m thrilled looking at your bio. I’m really honored to be with you on this podcast because I know you talk to a lot of famous people. So let me give our listeners a little bit of a review or an overview who Dan is. So he is a New York Best Times bestselling author and the managing partner of Workplace Intelligence, which is an award winning thought leadership and research agency focused on the world of work. He is the Best Selling Author of Speaker Your Books Back to Human, Promote Yourself, and Me to That Oh, I love that title. Through his company. Dan has led over 60 research studies with major brands including Amazon, Oracle to Lloyd, American Express, and We Work. He is also hosting himself a podcast he calls it it’s The Five Questions Podcast, where he interviews world class humans like Natalie Portman, Richard Branson, Condoleezza Rice, Reed Hastings, again, thank you so much for being with us. His Workplace Intelligence Weekly, LinkedIn Newsletter is one of the most read in his industry, with over 380,000 subscribers. And over 180,000 students have taken his LinkedIn learning course on leadership, management and hybrid working, then, I just suggested to both of my daughters to take one of your courses in LinkedIn. So hopefully, they will follow my advice. Again, welcome for being with us today.
Dan Schawbel 2:56
So happy to be here, and what a really important relevant topic.
Eveline Oehrlich 3:02
So let’s drive, dive into it right away. And just to share with you, Dan, our listeners are folks in IT, such as DevOps folks, developers, IT operations, site reliability engineers, security, folks, technologists, and practice practitioners. But we also have leaders. And we might have in sometimes do get some C level folks on our call on our podcast. And I think we also sometimes get folks outside of business, in it in the other areas of an organization. And just again, our recent, as I mentioned earlier, upskilling. I team Sherway. So showed us a variety of challenges around skill gaps, which continue. And we found that the biggest skill gaps actually using the roles of the developer in IT operations, and in a leadership, and again, for those who are listening in look for the upcoming report. But then I would love to hear your thoughts on the skill gap topic, we read it everywhere. Are we ever going to see a better balance between what skilled individuals we have? And what do we need?
Dan Schawbel 4:14
I think the top three biggest workplace trends right now are the skills gap and labor shortage. Both of them are intertwined course because if you can’t find people with the right skills, you can’t fill jobs, and therefore it stunts the corporate growth while being in remote slash hybrid work, right? And everything is very intertwined. So for instance, during COVID, there was a 300% or more increase in digital skills. Why? Because with people working remote, you needed those digital skills in order to continue to work right. So I think that with these new ways of working it impacts what skills are more or less important and things are changing really fast. Over the years. I’ve looked at kind of the skills gaps, what skills are more in demand less in demand from a heart and soul upskill standpoint, which we’re going to be talking about, but one of the things that’s really been interesting recently, even with kind of the economic downturn is there’s still 11 million unfilled jobs just in America. So we still have the skills gap, despite, you know, over 100,000, you know, tech workers being laid off. And if you go into those numbers, which is really interesting, about 60% of tech workers don’t even work in the tech industry. So it’s very interesting economic climate. And regardless of, you know, all the layoffs that are happening, there are still positions that companies, you know, can still can’t fail, because they can’t find the available talent with these skills. And one of the ways that companies are augmenting this and filling these gaps is not even by hiring humans, sometimes it’s by using automation, right. And so I think, whether it’s today or in the future, more and more every single year, jobs are being augmented by artificial intelligence, right, like look at chat GPT, like more and more people are using that were using chat GPT, along with human voice to better create content now in a more efficient way. And so think about these new AI technologies, we’ll talk more about this as well, are kind of offsetting some of the skills gap and augmenting positions. And therefore, potentially, when we talk about skills, we’re talking about a revolutionary change, whether you’re an hourly worker or a salaried worker, these new technologies are going to reshape how you work and live and do your job. So I think that that is something that, you know, we have to take seriously, because if a company can’t find humans to fill roles, then they’re starting to look to technology. And over the past three years during those pandemic conditions, with that labor shortage that continues till today, the investment in this type of technology, multiplied more so than that, I think what what’s really fascinating about the skills gap is that companies are now relying more on certifications, you know, even though they’re still relying on degrees and degrees are important, you know, because they need to expand their talent pool in order to recruit their jaw. A lot of these companies are dropping the four year degree requirements. And that’s been a trend for the past maybe five or so years. So we call it the unorthodox hire. And then the other thing, the biggest companies are doing this l&d pledge, which I’ve been following. And you know, one of our clients is Deloitte. And they just did a, a while being pledged for 1.4 billion. Another client is Amazon 1.2 billion a centers 200 million, at&t was actually the first to do this from my records at 1 billion. And so there’s been a huge investment in this space, because it’s not just looking at the skills of today. But the skills of tomorrow, which are driven by advancements in technology, and new markets that these organizations need to get to. And because it’s easier to kind of rescale and retrain and upscale people who are current workers, rather than pay more money to hire external workers, which also takes more time hiring internally takes a shorter amount of time. And one of the best examples during COVID, which I thought was fascinating and brilliant was from Verizon. So what they did was because of COVID, a lot of the retail stores shut down. And therefore all those sales reps within those retail stores could have been unemployed. But what they did was they retrain them to be call center employees, because they were getting way more of an uptick from the call center. So basically, they see a ton of money by week, retraining and rescaling their current workforce for jobs that were more in demand. At that time, of course, things have kind of shifted back a bit with people, you know, going back and being sales reps, but at the time again, you know, it’s a shift in labor. And the other thing too, what I saw, which I thought was really interesting is industries, sharing talent, meaning like a, a clothing retail store that wasn’t doing well and had too many employees, basically helping and partnering with, you know, a pharmacy to bring those skills and that talent over to them because they needed that work, again, non competitive, but kind of this new thing that I had never seen before. And then the reason why these persist is really, because there is also a disconnect between our education system and the needs of organizations. So you know, it’s very hard for education to kind of stay relevant and pump out, you know, students that have the right skills at the right time, it’s hard to change that curriculum fast enough to keep up with everything that’s going on. So a lot of people graduate, and they almost become kind of irrelevant in that market after graduation. So they’re paying all this money, and then they’re developing skills that might not be as relevant. So more of the need is coming on companies, companies, in my opinion, to becoming the post secondary universities. So again, like with that investment, like I said, you know, over a billion dollars of many of these companies, they’re taking on a lot of the slack, a lot of teachers who have left the education system are now becoming curriculum designers at companies. So that’s a huge shift to right burn. They’re burned out in the school system. And they’re like, Well, I still want to make money make a living. And then the demand for for more l&d within companies is shooting up. So they’re moving into organizations to be part of l&d. And then from our study, we just did a study of 1500 hourly workers and 1500 salaried workers in the US with Amazon. And what we found was that 78% of employees are concerned, they lack the skills they need, and 71% they lack education to advance in their careers. And so this is this is an ongoing problem that is not going to be solved this year or next. But it’s something that we have to all wrap our heads around.
Eveline Oehrlich 10:45
And the great news is that we see from our research that sea level and leaders in organizations, and you mentioned quite a few of them are seeing this finally, and I want to say a hallelujah, right? Because that’s really most important to that. You’ve highlighted quite a few things here, which fantastic, I would love to dive in deeper. But I have another question, which is something I want to ask you. So we do this research around these different skill domains, human technical leadership skills, process and framework skills. And as you mentioned automation, because that’s a big part of what we do in it, and I’ve been in it forever, I know nothing else. But in terms of these different domains, we are seeing a little bit of a shift from year to year, sometimes automation becomes more important than process than human. I think in the COVID years, human skills were really, really important. This year, the ranking is process skills, technical skills, then human skills. But we also found this year that leadership skill and the domain was for the first time the fourth highest must have skill domain. And we’ll elaborate more on that in the report. We also know from our community, and from the work I’ve done as an industry analyst that there are a variety of skill gaps at the leadership level. So having said that, skill gaps, leadership and leadership skills, what’s your reaction to this finding?
Dan Schawbel 12:18
So I’ve studied most in demand skills from hard and soft kill perspective, since I believe 2013, when I did a study with American Express on, you know, the most in demand and hardest to fill positions when it comes to jobs, and then skills etc. And what I found is, it’s typically, you know, you know, and more recently, actually, management skills, leadership skills, communication skills, customer service, and sales skills. So, and again, these all kind of blend into each other in a sense, right. So like, clearly, like, if you’re not a good communicator, it’s pretty hard to be a good salesperson as, as one example, customer service again, community. So communication really cuts across everything. So is, is typically ranked very high. I do think that a lot of leaders over the past three years were kind of burned out, a lot of people were in, there’s a big talk with executives that I’m speaking with a lot of, especially managers, middle managers, kind of set up to fail, they didn’t really have the necessary training and and that’s led to a lot of the issues we have. And for the frontline employees, that’s why a lot of my courses really focus on frontline managers, because they’re underserved, from a leadership development and management perspective, because, you know, it’s not like they went to school and learned how to manage a hybrid or remote workforce, right? Or we’re had to, you know, you know, almost act like a therapist in the workplace, because people are dealing with all these well being mental health type behavioral problems. So there’s all these things that managers didn’t really have to think about before that are now at the forefront, right. Like, I always think that everything we always have taken for granted in the workforce, kind of the human skills, if you think of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, is now at the forefront, right? Like safety and security, like when we didn’t really talk about that in the past, maybe in warehouses, maybe in other other types of areas where workforce injuries are usually higher, but in general, we took it for granted, especially knowledge workers, and now this is most of what we think about, you know, if we go back to the office, do they have, you know, the necessary protocols, etc. So, these type of conversation have kind of risen. The way I think about hard and soft skills are, you know, soft skills are somewhat consistent. So whether it leadership’s one or communications one, you know, they’re all kind of intersected and they’re all very you we always need them, there’s always going to be demand for them and those are things that are consistent, whereas like hard skills, for instance, you know, over the past year, you know, software development, SQL, you know, finance, Python, Java have been, you know, some of the biggest skills you know, that are, you know, where you know they’re hiring the most for, but, you know, this could change year over year based on news Technology is based on, you know, irrelevant software programs, all these different things, right. And I’m not going to talk like, I’m the expert at programming languages, but I will say that, you know, it’s, you’re more likely to see changes in hard skills over time. And in the speed at which those are going to change, it’s going to be more rapid than soft skills that again, are, you know, there’s a lot of overlap. And these are things that in order to kind of be a human in society personally or professionally, they’re important, right, like leadership skills, like that’s still important in your personal life in a way, right. And so I think that and communication skills, so I think that yeah, hard skills a little bit more volatile communication skills a little bit more consistent. And then the top five of the soft skills are have been pretty consistent over the years, but order has changed, but still, it’s top five is top five, like, these are the ones you clearly have to focus on. And then in terms of upscaling, you know, when it comes to these type of skills, you know, peer led learning, coaching, mentoring, again, you know, a lot of managers are kind of set up to fail. So the rise of, you know, coaching kind of programs has been huge, there’s a lot more companies that are kind of tackling that right now, because they see that gap. But for all levels, like oh, it’s almost like the coaching for executives is now something that, you know, managers and middle managers have to have to get as well. And so I think that leadership is very situational as well, as well as all the soft skills. So in order to develop them, you need to, you know, be in different situations and practice them and tweak to become a better leader.
Eveline Oehrlich 16:37
So a lot more active than passive learning. I think what I want to hear you say, is that correct?
Dan Schawbel 16:44
And I think it’s on the individual, I think it’s on the manager, I think it’s on mentors, and I think it’s on the C suite. And I think, you know, I think it’s across the board. It’s not just, it’s the individuals responsibility, but it’s the culture, it’s yes, all these facets to make that into that individual a better leader, it’s not just them, like, because you could be a great leader, but an organization that doesn’t respect your leadership qualities or promote you or support you, and then you’re gonna fail anyways. So I do think that the organization plays a big role.
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Eveline Oehrlich 17:46
I mean, I’ve been if I think back of my career, I have been in a very large technology company in it at the time coming out of the University with a Master’s and really I had that active learning by being a leader being coached by another leader, that was really quite, quite fantastic. And that’s many, many years ago. And I don’t want to say what year because it will date me, and we’ll just continue. Thank you. Those were great ideas. Now. We also found, we every year, we ask, Where are folks relative to the upskilling programs, and you mentioned that there is a significant amount of investment. We see companies like Deloitte, for example, or ServiceNow, those are some companies in our space have done or Infosys is another one, they have implemented great programs to upskill and rescale. But we also see that there is a challenge for many organizations, and this is within our research, they’re stuck somewhere in their assessment state. They’re assessing their programs, and they’re not getting them over the hump to actually get them out. Right. And so in this, this economic condition we’re in and it is a challenge, right? What do you see relative to the economic conditions in terms of the budgets and the plans for upskilling program development? Will the efforts continue? Will they sustain? Will they slow down? What’s your crystal ball? Say, when you look into that, then,
Dan Schawbel 19:17
You know, a lot of it depends on competing for talent and where the gaps are. So a company that has more unfilled positions that’s, you know, struggling right now that’s, you know, trying to compete in their market, they’re more likely to make those type of investments and acquisitions. But other companies maybe not so much, and then depends on company size, in terms of in terms of the investment as well. So that’s always a variable. But I do think that especially young people are demanding more of, of learning development opportunities and career advancement, you know, as they always have, right, but I think well, one of the things we asked in the Amazon study was, you know, how does this impact your willingness to stay within an organization relief right and 74% of millennials and Gen z’s, are likely to quit this year due to a lack of skill development opportunities. So clearly, like, you know, younger people, and we’ve seen this over time, too, the younger you are, the more likely you are to demand more learning and development, you know, initiatives and programs or curriculum, right, because you’re just starting out in your career, you’re just thirsty to learn as much as you can. Whereas, typically, again, you know, this, you know, this is not for everyone. But you know, if you’re, when you’re much older in the workforce, you’re probably you’re probably more settled and your job, you’re maybe a leader, you know, you know, so you might not be doing the day to day work. So that’s just how it’s been. And in terms of offerings that we looked at, basically found that these employees, not just Gen Z and millennials, but all employees say that they really benefit or they could really benefit from these Allen l&d programs that their company’s currently offering. But they don’t have access to those programs like they wish they did. And so some of those programs include free or partial coverage of tuition, training programs in other areas of the business, because there’s been a huge push for the adaptable workforce and moving horizontally, not just vertically within an organization, and then networking opportunities. So just about about half of employees have access to all three of those. So, you know, employees recognize that this is beneficial. They don’t have as much access to it, maybe it’s because of seeing lack of seniority, which kind of goes against the whole thing of everything I just told you, right? Because if, you know, by the time you have seniority, you might not want them as much, right? So I think that there’s a disconnect there. And it just shows you there is a lack of preparation in college. And we had studied that for years and years and years, we interviewed people as young as 16 years old to kind of look at that, and their careers prospects and how they saw the world. So I do think that I do think that that there, there’s a gap in learning between college and employer. And I think there’s a gap between employer and employee, especially entry level employ in terms of the skills they need and the access to the curriculum. And the the need for this is going to continue to increase, I think is going to get to the government level, because it’s, it’s kind of that dire. So I do think that governments will have to make an investment in their population, so that they have those skills, because again, like what we’re going to eventually face year over year is more technology permeating our lives, and therefore the elimination partially or fully of jobs, and therefore, the need to upskill and retrain the population, not just employers retraining their their employees is going to be huge.
Eveline Oehrlich 22:56
You know, something I wanted to add at this point is we have a lot of ambassadors, we have over 200 Ambassadors, I think today who are volunteers who help us on content and training and doing all kinds of things. And some of them actually are engaged in coaching and taking the knowledge over to universities and schools and things like that. It’s quite honorable to see those folks. I just wanted to point that out. But the the points you made, relative to how folks are maybe not necessarily having access and so on is kind of a lead into my next question. We found that in many cases, when we asked about upskilling, programs that are service taker said, There is no time of course in it, that’s always the top issues are we need to solve a problem, we need to get the code out we need whatever, right? Close that cybersecurity hole which just opened up, whatever. But there was also no budget and there’s no leadership approval, which are, unfortunately, still the top issues for the folks we’ve surveyed, as I said, and we’ve seen a significant percentage of people also say that they invest their own time and money into upskilling. And rescaling. So you’ve alluded to those already. But I want your advice for our listeners, those who are in the spots where they say, I don’t have budget, my leadership does not approve, I really don’t have time, and I really don’t want to invest my own money. What should these folks do? Any advice?
Dan Schawbel 24:29
You know, you got to find that this is where it gets tough, right? Because I was trying to think of advice for employees, but my real advice is for employers. And the reality is you have to make time you have to do the budget. You have to do the mentoring, you have to you know, have the company invest in maybe a portal, you know, that has a curriculum for them to take just something where they can get those skills. And so my advice is mostly for the employers because if an employee doesn’t you know, is not able to have time they you know, not everyone wants to sacrifice their way And, and obviously, the demands of their job are really high, then the employers have to give and build in skill development as part of their work day. And instead of having the employee pay for it, because again, once the economy changes, again, part of what the organizations compete on is not just compensation or health care or flexibility, but also learning and development opportunities, especially for the younger generations. So I do think that organizations need to focus on creating a culture of learning, I call it like a culture of shared learning where people are organically mentoring and supporting each other, and then have have the leaders I think, leaders, because again, the higher up you go, the less likely you are to take these classes and kind of upskill I think leaders, you know, should build in time to become better leaders, like you identified that leadership is a skill that’s really needed right now. And therefore, I think leaders need to take these courses and kind of get educated and whatnot, and maybe go to executive to executive ed classes or whatever they need to do, that’s going to work best in how they, how they specifically learn to advance become better leaders, because then that’s going to signal that learning is, is something culturally, that’s okay. And then, you know, obviously, having the budget and the support is going to be important for getting employees involved to follow suit. So I do think the other way I’ve seen a lot of organizations handle this is to show learning paths to promotion, and advancement through skills. So just say, Hey, if you learn these skills, this is what’s keeping you from getting more money or to get a promotion or or title. So if you learn these skills, by taking these courses and practicing this at work, you’re more you’re you know, you’re set up to advance, I think that’s something that can be very, very useful as well.
Eveline Oehrlich 26:51
One of the things we’ve been, I want to say, I don’t want to say batching. But discussing in the leadership team at DevOps Institute is the ROI of upskilling. So that we can actually share some details with those folks who don’t step up to the plate and allow and enable their employees. So that’s some work to come. But I know we have a few minutes left, and I have two more questions for you. The first one is human skills, you call them soft skills, I call them human skills doesn’t really matter. Everybody knows what we’re talking about, cannot be certified. But how have you seen others? How have you seen folks to improve their human skills? Besides, you said, practicing and having coaches, but on the human side? It’s a little bit difficult, right? Like, I could not step up. I couldn’t imagine some of my colleagues step up and say, Hey, can you help me on some of those human skills? Any ideas? You have?
Dan Schawbel 27:45
Yes, I did. So I think the best way to build human skills is for people to just have more conversations. So for instance, my human skills, even for doing interviews, years ago, weren’t that strong. But you know, after 3000, interviews, you know, having an organic conversation within a podcast format, or any other format becomes much easier because of experience and comfort, doing it many, many times. And then, you know, learning from other people watching other interviews and other people how they communicate, and then kind of adjusting to make my communication style, you know, better. So I do think that stepping outside of your comfort zone, continuing to practice put yourself in as many situations where you can practice these soft skills, or as you say, human skills, making it a priority for you getting feedback from other people, you know, after meeting Was I too aggressive? How was my tone? I was my body language, should I communicate this effectively? You know, it’s asking those type of questions to solicit feedback from your manager that can be very helpful. observing others, like I was saying, you know, if you want to, you know, you know, Google like the top best communicators, and then watch, you know, YouTube videos of them, and see how they watch a TED Talk. For instance, they are trained to be good communicators, especially at the annual conference. So you get a sense of, oh, this is what they’re doing. Right? This is how they tell stories. So it’s, I think it’s observing, it’s putting yourself in the situation, getting a mentor or getting feedback from your manager, I think all of those can really help you be better.
Eveline Oehrlich 29:20
Great ideas that made me just remember something we used to do at the same company I was talking earlier about with the Toastmasters. For those sessions, we it was actually more for improving our public speaking. And many of us got up at really early to do that outside of our day to day job, but it helped us because we actually opened up almost like to the folks who were listening in to give me feedback on all of those things, and then had to do with human skills. And I think, I think back to those times, some of those were painful, particularly if you had to get some feedback. You didn’t like, but I for myself did a lot of Galala learning there anything. Anything I got there was great. All right, we’re almost to the end, give us a short summary of the type of work which is done at Workplace Intelligence because I know you are there a lot. Did you do a lot of work there? Give us just a quick like, two or three lines of what type of work do you guys do?
Dan Schawbel 30:22
Yeah, so the type of work we do is we work on big research projects, and campaigns focus on every single workplace topic, including upscaling. So we’ve done 66 So far with, you know, another five to seven more coming this year. So it’s a ton of research goal is to kind of connect the dots and you know, help brands tell their stories through thought leadership content. Also, we have a newsletter, like you were saying earlier, Workplace Intelligence weekly on LinkedIn, you know, it’s continues to grow. And we again, use that as a mechanism to, you know, talk about different workplace topics and tie them in to what’s relevant in today’s society, today’s working world. So we’re always trying to do that, you know, trying to think about, hey, what’s the most relevant, you know, type topics, and then working with companies to develop content to then link to those topics.
Eveline Oehrlich 31:25
Fantastic. And I have been signed up for that LinkedIn newsletter, and I get it, it’s part of my reading. If I skip it, I miss it, because there was always very good things in there. So to our listeners, I highly recommend go there. Okay, now I have a fun question has nothing to do with upskilling. But what do you do for fun if you don’t do your research and your work or write books?
Dan Schawbel 31:47
Aside from this being fun? As you can tell, I love this stuff. Yeah, I mean, you know, walks, runs, traveling, you know, I’m going to be going to Central Europe this year, and back to Greece and Italy. And, you know, so I, you know, I like to kind of get out there and explore the world and, you know, big avid reader every day. Yeah, speak to Pete speaking to people practicing those soft skills, which again, helps you personally and professionally. And yeah, and you know, I love listening to music and, you know, different shows on TV.
Eveline Oehrlich 32:24
Fantastic. If you make it to the southern part of Germany, just ring the bell. I have a nice cup of coffee and adult beverage or whatever you’d like love to take you out for dinner. This has been a great conversation, then. We have been talking to Dan Schawbel , New York Times bestselling author and a managing partner of Workplace Intelligence. Dan, again, thank you so much for joining me today on Humans of DevOps Podcast.
Dan Schawbel 32:52
Thank you again, it’s a pleasure.
Eveline Oehrlich 32:54
Humans of DevOps podcast is produced by DevOps Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia pape, Daniel Newman, Schultz and Brandon Lay. I’m Humans of DevOps Podcast, executive producer Eveline Oehrlich. If you would like to join us on a podcast, please contact us at Humans of DevOps podcast at DevOpsInstitute.com. Boy, that’s a mouthful. I’m Eveline Oehrlich, talk to you soon.
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