DevOps Institute

[EP74] Communication Breakdown with Kainar Kamalov, Pipe


On this episode of the Humans of DevOps, Jason Baum is joined by Kainar Kamalov. They discuss:

  • What it means to be a good communicator?
  • Communication in remote teams
  • Tips for improving communication within teams
  • How do you help team members be adaptable? How do you consider vulnerability?
  • How can you think about accountability within teams in a flat organization?
  • How do you ensure that work remains rewarding at Pipe?
  • Running ūüŹÉ

Voted Best 25 DevOps Podcasts by Feedspot

Kainar Kamalov is committed to helping humans make the most of technology and helping engineers do their best work. Originally from Osh, Kyrgyzstan and now residing in Bishkek, the MIT graduate and published expert on human-computer interactions was a founding team member at B12, where he created and led a distributed engineering team. He’s currently Director of Engineering at Pipe, a recurring revenue trading platform. At Pipe, his focus is on building new products as well as recruiting and leading a team of engineers distributed across the globe.

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Please find a lightly edited transcript below

Narrator 00:02
You’re listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the SKIL framework.

Kainar Kamalov 00:17
First is compensation. The second is team. And the third is, what’s the mission or project that you’re working on? If you have all three of them, you believe in the mission and like the problems you’re solving are exciting. And I think like, that’s an ideal environment.

Jason Baum 00:33
Hey, everyone, it’s Jason Baum, Director of Member experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the Humans of DevOps podcast. So welcome back. It’s another week, hope it was a good one for you. And I’m really happy to have you back here listening to the show. And on today’s episode, it’s sort of a topic that’s close to home for me. Communication. And we’ve sort of gone around the topic of communication in various ways. We’ve talked about proactive honesty, we’ve talked about empathetic communication or empathic communication, I should say. And, and we, we really never dove into communication as a whole. So today, that’s exactly what we’re going to do. And my guest today, Kainar Kamalov is here to talk about it with me and Kainar is committed to helping humans make the most of technology and helping engineers do their best work. He’s originally from OSH, Kyrgyzstan, and now resides in Bishkek. He’s an MIT graduate and publish expert on human-computer interactions, was a founding team member at B 12. were created and led a distributed engineering team and is currently director of engineering at Pipe, which is a recurring revenue trading platform, at Pipe, he focuses on building new products, as well as recruiting and leading a team of engineers distributed across the globe. And that’s something we’re definitely going to get into also communication not just in your own backyard, but communication when you have to do it, like 12 hours past your bedtime. So, Kainar, thank you so much for joining me and welcome to the humans of DevOps podcast.

Kainar Kamalov 02:24
Thank you, Jason. I’m very glad to be here. I think it’ll be an interesting topic for us to cover because English is like the third or fourth language that I speak. So for me, it takes a lot of effort to communicate well,

Jason Baum 02:38
I could say hello, and a few different languages. I can order I can order things. That’s the extent of my bilingual illness or trilingual illness. So very important. Yeah, absolutely. And yes. Okay, so Kiner, are you ready to get human? Oh, let’s do it. I think we’ve already started. So what does it take to be a good communicator in your eyes?

Kainar Kamalov 03:05
Yeah, this is such a multifaceted, big question. And I think, for me, it’s important. Like when I think a good communicator is someone who is a clear communicator, a person that has thought through a problem before jumping into answering the, you know, like proposing a solution or answering the question. The other thing that I want to touch on is that communication, a lot of the times it’s not about just saying something, but it’s also being an active listener, understanding the surroundings, right, and like, so in a lot of this one on ones conversation that we have, it helps you have to be listening to your, to whomever you’re communicating with, to be able to then kind of reflect back on what they’re saying, and to kind of build upon the topics that you’ve been discussing. Yeah. And so for us, I also think that like in, like engineering organizations, what is important is to have processes to guide those communications, right, to make them really good, right. So for instance, you know, like, even like, when we do pull requests, we have to have clear guidance as to how to do certain things. Because if everyone does it in a different way, there are no guidances around it, then you just get like, it’s really hard to follow for someone who’s just joining the team or who has someone who’s been absent for a while. Yeah,

Jason Baum 04:32
and you mentioned active listening and it’s funny, we talk about communication and people usually talk about how they talk right how they what they’re saying and I think I’m glad that you went right to listening. You know, there’s the saying write about having one mouth but you have two years, right and, and not just listening, but then also I think being able to valid data, what the person is saying to you, goes a long way as well right in showing that you’re listening to them, and not just listening to them, but you are empathy. Empathic, ah, I cannot say that word today, you are feeling empathy for them. And you understand what they’re saying. And that goes towards, then you could get to the next step, right? It’s how do you go from A to B?

Kainar Kamalov 05:28
Yeah, exactly. Like, especially like with our globally distributed team, we have like, we come from all different backgrounds for, for us, it is important to be on the same page. And the way like I have the simple tricks that I do, for instance, like just asking question again, right? Like when someone says something to me just asking back, just repeating whether like I understood the question, right, or just adding follow-up questions. And then once a person finishes a point, or like a conversation, just tell them back what exactly what I’ve heard and make sure that I heard it correctly. During the meeting.

Jason Baum 06:03
Yeah. So what are so that’s like one tip, for better communication. What’s another tip that you might have?

Kainar Kamalov 06:11
Yeah, I think on the tips, we have a whole list of things, it depends on I guess, like, we’ll give brother the communication is one on one, or it’s within a team or within an org, or outside of an org, right. So for instance, if it’s very technical, like say, we are working on a project together, and we want to make sure that it’s shipped. So there are certain channels that we have to establish prior to actually starting the problem, like the problem definition is, like, we have to be very clear what the what kind of problem we’re solving before, people are bought into it, like the stakeholders understand what problem we’re solving. And, and then like just having, like, whenever we have a meeting around this problem, making sure that we take notes about, you know, like, so So whoever is not in a meeting, they know exactly what we’ve talked about. And then in the end of the meeting, have summaries. And then we have like Project charters when you can, when it’s a one-pager that describes what this project is going to be about. So again, this is like, really important in a globally distributed team to have as much communication, like over-communication is a good source of communication as possible. And, and in that sense, like, we have to make sure that they have project charters, we have RFCs work like technical descriptions of the documents. And all of those communications have to happen before in engineering team actually goes and then executes and starts implementing those things. So I think that’s like everything prior to actually implementing it.

Jason Baum 07:48
Yeah, and and I would argue, almost, it’s not necessarily over communication, it’s effective communication, right, that we often are lacking, or that we are striving for, in many instances, and you brought up virtual work environments and global work environments. And certainly, that’s something that prior to the pandemic, certainly on the rise, but nothing like it is now. And I would imagine that throws a whole other, you know, arm in the race, this is like, it’s it’s a whole different world now that we operate in. And from a communication perspective. It’s just another hurdle, right?

Kainar Kamalov 08:32
Yeah, for sure. I think, I think I was well set up going into a pandemic if you can say, so basically, for the past eight years now, I’ve been working remotely. I’ve been working from Kyrgyzstan, I would travel back and forth to the states and whatnot, but mostly I’ve been working remotely. And, yeah, we’ve set up processes around it. Like, in the beginning, we had when I had to work by American hours, like in 2014. That would be an iPad with my face on it so that I’m present in the office, it was everyone else. And that quickly became ineffective, because I had to stay up until five in the morning, right? And then yeah, and then we kind of had to evolve. And we had to like come up with like, how do we make sure that we have all these, like communication channels in place? So and then actually building this remote-first teams, and going into a pandemic like pipe was started two and a half years ago, and started right before the pandemic. So the whole company, the whole team culture is was built during a pandemic. And that’s why we were able to scale globally.

Jason Baum 09:41
Can you give an example maybe if something that you do, maybe that’s a little different than if you were communicating in an office setting like when you have I’ll give you an example from something that I see at least on my team, so we are all remote? It’s actually the first environment I’ve been in where the entire company is remote. Before we talked about this two weeks ago, our topic was the great resignation, we spent a little bit of time on some cultural issues, I really believe retention is something we should be focusing on. And recruitment is always gonna be important. It’s nothing like it was because now you can recruit globally. So you have this huge talent pool of the world. But retention is also important and keeping those good people because you never know, you know, for both sides, right? The grass is always greener, a little bit. And we don’t focus on that enough. And I think good, positive, positive communication, effective communication, all these things are so important. On my team, I’ve noticed culture-wise, that while we are great communicators, there is a need I think, for, quote, unquote, small talk or, you know, the ability to what we don’t have that I noticed, that is kind of lacking is the ability to like go to your team members desk, knock on the door, poke your head in, have your cup of coffee in hand, pen, just how was the weekend, you know, type of conversation? And unless it’s a planned meeting, and now you’re gonna have that conversation, it doesn’t happen. And we’re missing it. I think.

Kainar Kamalov 11:25
100% Yeah, I think we actually, like there are two problems there. Right. One is, for existing team members, how do we make sure that the team is like, there is this? Like, there is fluidity right, where there’s, you can just knock on someone’s door and whatnot. And then there is bringing someone onto the team. So I’d say like those are, and like making sure that they feel like a good part of the team. And they kind of like fit right in and then increase on this culture. So the jump into the first point, is like, what we do is like, like, we have hours of everyone works in so in Slack, you know exactly when someone is present or not. Right. And when someone is present, we just, we use huddles a lot. We just like jumped into the hurdles. Similar to how you would just, like knock on someone’s door. Like if I love I just yeah, this is such a great invention. Yeah. Yeah. So we just go into the hurdles before cuddles were like a part of the slack. We used to have discord channels open. So we would have just like three channels on Discord that you could just be part of just sit there work. And then someone else joins in, you just talk. So. So that’s something that we tried to be active about. We also have these recurring meetings, we call them water coolers. Where there is no agenda in those meetings. It’s any, anyone in the team can join them whenever they want. Usually, I talk about sports, I talk about running and biking, because that’s what I do.

Jason Baum 12:52
A lot of I love that. Are they just open?

Kainar Kamalov 12:56
Yeah, exactly. They’re open, you can just come in and just hang out with people. And then like, we actually had, like, couple of people in our team that were just talking there. And then like, hey, why don’t we meet up next week in Finland. And then two people just flew out from the states to Finland, and they spent a week there, just hanging out through three co-workers. Right. So that was amazing. And, and then we have to make sure that the new person that is joining us also vulnerable like you know, we create a safe spot where they feel vulnerable, to be able to be part of the team and just express their ideas. And not shy away. Without everyone. There are no dumb questions. So we just like, kind of like we have onboarding buddies that just take and spend like our three to three weeks of their time, just helping to get someone like to make sure that they fit right into the team. So and we had examples where like team members had to fly into, like this new members, you know, city, so that they could spend a couple of weeks together actually working and setting them up and whatnot. Yeah, and then one thing like that never can never substitute, in my opinion, like, real-world communication. Just it’s not substitutable, right. So for, for that what we do is every three months, we try to meet as a whole engineering team, or like the whole team. Like every three, every six months, we meet as an engineering team, and then every other six months, the whole company meets. So there is like every three months like engineers get to hang out with each other. And during that time, we just try to make sure that we just focus on this team-building activities and just making sure that people are comfortable with each other and build this trust between each other and understand each other better.

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Jason Baum 15:38
So tell me about water coolers a little bit more? Because I am I think that I think you’ve shared a lot of great ideas there. The water cooler meeting is something I have not heard of as like just an open, recurring meeting that’s just always there. And you can just jump it. How do you? So I think some of these methods and we’ve talked about them on the podcast in the past are great. The problem I see is adoption. How do you get people to buy-in? To those? Yeah,

Kainar Kamalov 16:10
that’s, that’s a great question. Like, what we do is we have less like Slack, Slack channel, that’s called Water Cooler. And then during this actually, we had a water cooler, like, last week, which was like, we have them with three times a week. And last week, last one was on Friday, like, say, 7pm my time, right? What we do is like whoever is the first person to join the water cooler, they just create either a huddle, if they want to just hear or they can create a zoom, and just blast out a message to the chat. Hey, welcome, people are welcome to join. And you’d be surprised a lot of people actually do join because I think we are remote first. And I think it’s all about like, making sure that it is ingrained, right. It’s, this is something that I look forward to, because then I get to talk to people that I don’t get a chance to talk to day to day. And it’s a lot of fun.

Jason Baum 17:05
Because when teams are working together when you’re sharing that information, right, when you’re making yourself vulnerable when you’re communicating effectively, and it’s not just work-related. Now there’s this trust that you’re building, right? And that’s how proactive honesty can come about. And that’s, and right. And it’s like, it’s like a snowball that you’re building a little bit. And when you don’t have it. I think you can sense it, right? The team doesn’t necessarily function at the best that it could you maybe you have silos that are come up, right?

Kainar Kamalov 17:38
Exactly. And like, it’s like, a lot of the times people are focused on this execution mode, and they are working on their projects. But then in this water coolers, we can take a step back, and we just talk about random things, right, we can talk about, like non-work-related things, but a lot of the times, like, certain things, certain frustrations might come up that, you know, like that, I might share, like, Hey, I think this didn’t go well. And then we can all talk there. And then like, we might have an outcome from it right. Beyond that, we have this meeting called Kaizen, which is every two weeks and engineering team sits down. And we have an but that one is specifically focused on discussion topics. So everyone, we like to make sure that there are topics that might be uncovered during this any meeting water coolers or any other meeting or just someone that sees an issue of some sorts, and we just discuss it with Hey, how can we improve our communications? How can we just giving each other feedback and shouting each other out making sure that like, just building this culture of transparency?

Jason Baum 18:49
Yeah, like that a culture of transparency, a culture of trust? And this might answer the question that I’m about to ask though. But, you know, when you provide feedback, especially in a remote environment, everyone has gotten the text before or the email that you read, and you’re like, What are they talking about? And you get angry? And you’re, oh, I can’t believe they wrote this. And then you know, you get on the phone with them or you have it in person? And you’re Oh, no, I didn’t mean it that way. Like it totally misinterpreted what I had to say because it’s not a great channel of communication, right? We So so how is it that you can help team members in this environment when everything is the channel is through slack the channel is through. Maybe it’s not in the water cooler, although I love the water cooler because that allows for this openness, and the better channel but how do you help team members? Kind of not be defensive and be adaptable in a remote environment?

Kainar Kamalov 19:57
Yeah, I think you People get defensive, usually, in my opinion, when there is lack of trust, a lot of times, and, and I think that’s like a, like if, and that’s, that’s a bigger issue that, that, like, if I see someone being defensive, then I have to maybe it’s structurally we have something like the culture is not right, you know, like something had to irritate this person to a point that we got to that point, right. So, to avoid that what we have to be active about giving feedback. And feedback is, and we’ve tried to be very conscientious about it, we say like, Hey, this is this feedback is not to who you are, this feedback is towards this particular issue, right. And like, some people just have more tendency to be like, more aggressive during the meetings and whatnot, and others are more defensive. So I think like giving feedback on like, how the meeting can be held, is important. So and the vulnerability is, like, such a hard topic, I think we try to, we try to be very proactive about it. And we have like, one on ones, we have one on ones, it’s a flat organization, we don’t have like, we have 2530 engineers, and we try to make sure that everyone is heard. And everyone. Like, we try to have like this, like, network effect that everyone talks to everyone so that we are on the same page. And so there are two things that we do we have, we always have, like, written communication is important. But also like we have meetings, where like people discuss certain issues. And if it’s a recurring meeting, we make sure that every week, a new member is a meeting leader, and there is a new note taker, so and then meeting leaders job is to make sure that everyone in the meeting is participating. And that way this like, like everyone is growing from that experience, and at the same time, like all of this gaps that we might have missed are being uncovered.

Jason Baum 22:17
Are you creating a culture of accountability? By doing that, also?

Kainar Kamalov 22:23
Exactly, I think, I think we, we try to be very, very conscientious about like, what type of people we are hiring, I think, and we are looking for people that enjoy building and enjoy writing code, it’s like, they have either hacker mentality entrepreneurial mentality, where everyone in a team, just like, we have this shared values engineering, or like, company-wide values. And, and one of the values is to communicate, clearly and often, for instance, right. And the other. Another value is like making sure that you know, like, if you see a problem, just go fix it type of mentality, and, and, and what and how the way we like, that’s the type of people that we are looking for. And, and we we make sure that we facilitated within a team by whenever there is a new project, we don’t have, like, we get all just come together to solve that problem project within a team. But then like, within that group, there is like, there will be a leader. And we want to make sure that the leaders change on project basis so that everyone has a chance to be, like, responsible person for that project. Right. So and that’s how we make sure that the outcome, there is accountability. And so and then, and accountability comes from multiple factors, right, such as problem definition, like have we had day as a group, we’re able to define what problem they’re trying to solve. And what’s the success metric once they solve that problem. So and they have to make sure that, you know, they, that’s it, then then we can tell from as a leadership, we can talk to them. And at the end of the meeting, at the end of the project, say like, Hey, did you achieve what you were what you said you would achieve?

Jason Baum 24:19
And that’s how we can provide that feedback. Yeah. And provide the feedback. Yeah. Which is which is that that one of the final pieces right of that communication cycle? So how did how at pipe What are you doing at pipe to kind of keep things I guess, rewarding, to give a sense of you want people to be passionate about their work. Now, obviously, you can’t make someone passionate about their work. But how do you keep it exciting? How do you keep them jazzed about you know what’s going on and I guess, excited about what they do.

Kainar Kamalov 24:59
Yeah, Um, so what I hear is that what, what makes a job reporting? I guess, right. So, in my opinion, they’re like, three things that make an employee happy, like, in a broader scheme, like first is compensation if, and the second is team. And the third is like, what’s the mission or project that you’re working on, say like, if you have all three of them, like you have you enjoy the team, you have great compensation, you don’t have to worry about it. And you believe in the mission that this and like, the problems you’re solving are exciting. And I think like, that’s an ideal environment. If one of these three factors is off, then it creates weird dynamics where it’s like, if the team is off, and it’s like, I’m not sure if I want to work here, you know, like, this guys don’t seem to be like, you know, XY and Z and whatnot, right? And then, and if two factors, or two of the three are not working, then it’s like, why am I even in this team? So. So for us, it’s important to make sure that, like, we cover all of those things. And, yeah, and I think it also comes from the fact that, like, all of us are super vulnerable and open. Like, I like I’m, I think it’s okay to say that you don’t know certain things. And then you are like, yeah, like, we always ask for feedback, like, Hey, how can we improve on that? And this? And that? Oh, 100%? Yeah, I think I think

Jason Baum 26:28
that’s more important, right than asking for it.

Kainar Kamalov 26:32
Yeah, 100%, I think that’s so important. And, because initially, like that, like, like the first two years, right of any team, any company’s growth is, you know, just kind of like, just trying to find the problem to solve. And then we just work on projects, and you scale a team, you, you create something exciting, and then and then you reach a certain size in a team when, you know, like, if you don’t have well. well documented values, for instance, are well-documented processes in place, then people tend to create them for their own smaller circles. And that creates a division. And, and that’s exactly what I’m trying to avoid. How do we make sure that like, we’re all focused on the same goal, and how do we make sure that we are striving to improve communication across the board?

Jason Baum 27:29
Yeah, definitely. It’s kind of like the struggle of you want hive mind, but that people keep their individuality. Right. It’s like, it’s nowhere in the world. No, no, and no other instance of life. Is this, like an acceptable way of going about it. But we do really want that right, the hive mind, but all for positive. But you know, it’s funny, because you mentioned the things that people value, you know, obviously compensation. And, but I think that the reasons why people leave their jobs aren’t necessarily because of compensation. I think people leave their jobs, maybe because they’re not being heard. Because communication is poor because they’re providing feedback. And it’s not being taken because there’s a lack of the mission like you said, silos. So it’s funny, because it’s like, all these things that you don’t really necessarily not everyone goes into the job, you know, thinking about those things. They’re like, Well, what do I get paid? And How flexible are you with my hours, which obviously, is important, but I think those other things are usually more important when leaving the job.

Kainar Kamalov 28:48
Yeah, 100%, I think, and what we do is actually like, we have this retrospectives. And we do them upon achieving anything, or failing on any major milestone, right? So and it can be like, when we, when we have like when we complete a project, or we complete a quarter, like, what did we do? Like, the team sits down and they are like the whole company sit down and then say, Hey, what did we do, right? What did we do wrong? We have we make sure that like those, everyone has, like a time to ask to raise certain points. And then we create action items from that, to make sure that we actually then like, follow up follow through on that on the retro

Jason Baum 29:35
Yeah, keeping your word is incredibly important. I think for the company, and for the employee to write you say you’re going to get a job done. Get the job done. If you can’t get the job done, communicate it. You know, it’s funny if you if you’re missing deadlines, obviously it’s gonna raise a red flag you’re gonna be in trouble you know, whatever you know, it’s not gonna be good situation for you. But if you’re gonna miss a deadline, and I feel like if you raise that flag earlier in the process, and you look at it as I’m a sports, I’m a sports fan to kind of our but we can’t win, I’m not allowed to talk about it too much on the podcast, I get in trouble. But if you look at it from a team sense, right sports, you win and you fail as a team, individual performance, yes, it’s important. But at the end of the day, you know, individuals don’t work when championships teams do, right. So when you have one individual who is struggling a little bit, and they’re at least proactively honest about it, I think that’s really important, because then the team can rally around that person and can help. But when it’s too late, it’s too late for everyone.

Kainar Kamalov 30:50
Exactly, I think that’s a great point you touched on, I think, what we also tried to do is to make sure that like, those things surfaced earlier in time. So, one-on-ones are a great way to do it, right? Like because in this, like the job of a manager of a lot of the times is to make sure that like, you know, like to keep people accountable, but at the same time protect them from, you know, like just being there as a, as a friend, making sure if there’s something going on, that might be out of their control, right, like maybe some issues outside of the work, then like this person is actually being a shield, saying, hey, this person had some time of, like, let’s make sure that, you know, like, let’s not bother them for a bit. And on the other hand, if there is no like external factors, then maybe a manager’s job is like, Hey, you have to step up now in order for us to be able to achieve certain things. So it’s like, it’s more of an art than science there.

Jason Baum 31:51
Yeah, totally. It’s like navigating a ship. Sometimes, you know, it takes a while to turn it and it takes, you know, it takes more than just one person to turn a cruise ship, right. So I really appreciate it. I think we’ve covered so much on the topic. And I appreciate your time kind iron for coming to us all the way from Kyrgyzstan. And now the way we usually wrap up our podcast is that we ask one question that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, but all about you. So to put you on the spot a little bit. What is one thing that you could be remembered for? If you could be remembered for one thing? What would that be?

Kainar Kamalov 32:39
Like after I die? Or like after this podcast?

Jason Baum 32:42
Sure, whichever. I’ve never actually had someone interpret it that way. But I love that. But yeah, it’s up to you. I mean, typically, I think people think post mortem, but

Kainar Kamalov 32:56
that’s too far for me to think about. So. Yeah, well, I think I, as I said, I do sports for fun. And I got into running like, like, couple, like five, six years ago. And so right now I hold Kyrgyzstan records for 5k 10k 21k and 42k. Like marathon Mau, among amateurs not among professionals. Yeah, that’s a fact that

Jason Baum 33:29
have you ever thought about participating in the Olympics?

Kainar Kamalov 33:32
I’m not that. And it’s a lot of effort. You have no kid so many crazy hours.

Jason Baum 33:38
Yeah, but you That’s awesome. Congratulations on that. That’s That’s great. So you want to be remembered for your running? Is that what you’re saying? After this podcast? Yeah, yeah, see, I’m putting the pressure on

Kainar Kamalov 33:51
the better thing. Interesting actually, we just agential Running is I’m a coach, I’m a running coach as well part-time right and, and I think has to do with communications and accountability all the time. So we have I’m coaching six people and they’ve been showing great results and they’ve been winning local starts as well.

Jason Baum 34:21
So I think that that speaks to just being able to communicate and make sure you build this trust and and they execute on so many traits right and coaching and then can be applied in Business and Management and culture shifts and all those things right i mean it’s so similar very much and a lot of the things that we hold true you know, for sports can easily be applied. Yeah, thanks so much for being with us today Kainar, and for doing this. It’s not super late by you, but it’s pretty late by you when we’re recording this. I really appreciate your you’re staying up to do this. And I know you’re going to be up for a long time because you work with folks in the States but I really appreciate it.

Kainar Kamalov 35:01
Thank you, Jason. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Jason Baum 35:04
Absolutely. And thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of DevOps Podcast. I’m going to end this episode the same way I always do encouraging you to become a member of the DevOps Institute to get access to even more great resources just like this one. Something fun that I’m going to announce. It’s, maybe I’ll drop a hint on this episode, and give you more information on future ones. We are building something at DevOps Institute. We call ourselves a community we are community. Let’s just put it this way. That’s going to be even more true, even more true, even truer going forward. So, a little more on that on a future episode. And until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and most of all, and stay human, live long and prosper.

Narrator 35:56
Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of DevOps podcast. Don’t forget to join our global community to get access to even more great resources like this. Until next time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. You belong

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