On this episode of the Humans of DevOps, Jason Baum is joined by Helen Beal, Chief Ambassador at DevOps Institute. They discuss Helen’s tech beginnings including an *interesting* data entry story, human skills, learning and helping people plus way more!
Helen Beal is a DevOps and Ways of Working coach, Chief Ambassador at DevOps Institute, and ambassador for the Continuous Delivery Foundation. She is the Chair of the Value Stream Management Consortium and provides strategic advisory services to DevOps industry leaders such as Plutora and Moogsoft. She is also an analyst at Techstrong Research.
She hosts the Day-to-Day DevOps webinar series for BrightTalk and the Value Stream Evolution series on TechStrong TV. She speaks regularly on DevOps and value stream-related topics, is a DevOps editor for InfoQ, and also writes for a number of other online platforms.
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The lightly edited transcript can be found below.
You’re listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework.
Helen Beal 00:17
What you’ve just described is absolutely the way of working that we try and talk about in terms of the culture of DevOps and transformation leadership. It’s not about punishing berating people. It’s about helping people self discover improvement.
Jason Baum 00:33
Hey, everyone, its Jason Baum, Director of membership at DevOps Institute and this is the Humans of DevOps podcast. And today, I am very excited to be sitting down to chat with my colleague, Helen Beal. Helen is a DevOps and ways of working coach, Chief ambassador at DevOps Institute is an ambassador for the continuous delivery Foundation, and the chair of the value stream management Consortium. She also provides strategic advisory services to DevOps industry leaders such as Plutora, and Moogsoft. She is an analyst at Tech strong research as well. She hosts the day to day DevOps webinar series for bright talk. The value stream Evolution Series on texture on TV, and speaks regularly on DevOps and value stream related topics, is a DevOps editor for info queue, and also writes for a number of other online platforms. She regularly appears in tech beacons, DevOps top 100 lists, and was recognized as the top DevOps evangelist in 2020, the DevOps dozen Awards and was finalist for computing DevOps Excellence Awards DevOps professional of the year 2021. Helen, welcome to the show. We’re gonna give you a Lord for the longest bio to
Helen Beal 01:50
so sorry, but you made it the whole way through
Jason Baum 01:53
it was fun, though. My goodness, I think I was saying I think you should get the Nobel Prize to, we’ll just add that it’s
Helen Beal 02:00
a wonderful time to pee isn’t it.
Jason Baum 02:03
If you want an award, we’ll give you an on for that too. I am I’m jealous. I have to say you are on a lot. And and that’s a credit to the kind of person you are and and what a great speaker you are. So really appreciate you taking the time out to come and talk to us on the humans of DevOps podcast.
Helen Beal 02:24
Oh, you’re our family. And it’s my favorite podcast. So you know,
Jason Baum 02:28
thank you, you, you, you have quite an interesting story. You know, so many people, obviously, in the industry, so many people know you and you’re our chief ambassadors. So you wrangle the 200 Plus DOI ambassadors, which is a job unto itself. But but let’s get started with with you and your career, and maybe take us back to when it all started. And, and maybe the why I think what we like to do on this podcast, is to understand the why what makes the heartbeat You know, I think that’s that’s a great interview question sometimes for people. But it’s also a great question on here, when we’re just trying to get to know you, you know, what’s, what’s the reason that you got into all this in the first place?
Helen Beal 03:13
What makes me tick, that kind of like, in first some kind of intention. And I think, as we work through my story, we might discover there’s not an awful lot, but there probably is some kind of purpose underneath it all. I guess. It’s funny, because I’ve had to do more of this. As I guess we’ve been doing more profiles and stuff over recent years. And it’s brought up things that I’d forgotten. And if you try and I guess go back to where this all started. It’s like 1981, and I’m seven, and my dad who’s a pilot, so he’s really techie as well gets our first computer and I can remember it was 1981 because it was a Sedex 81. I don’t remember those who probably may be too young, but they have this kind of pushy keyboard. So I remember being playing it on my own at primary school and playing some kind of game where they were like witches and jungles and stuff. And I’ve never really thought of myself as introverted until more recently, but I’ve looked back at that little girl playing her Sedex 81 In primary school and her own at lunchtime, playing whatever this witches game was, I think maybe it was a bit more intimate than I thought. But yeah, so my introduction to computers was quite early and then we got a CPC 464 And I was programming using basic and my parents had quite a strong work ethic and they gave us a bit of pocket money, but it was quite limited. We were allowed to earn extra money by not washing the car. But then my brother got the paper around and then he sub contract his paper around to me because he couldn’t bother to do it anymore. Businessman. My brother he went on to study business studies at university and yeah, we’ve we started working early. I remember working in a greengrocers and I think I was about 11 and Simon My brother was been about 13 so used to pay us a pound an hour for already And then another 10 Pay for how old we were over 10. So I used to get one pound 10 an hour, and so nice to get one pound 30. But there was a great bonus of that job in that you were allowed to eat whatever you wanted in the green grocers. And I’ve always loved fruits, that was great. And also they had bread sometimes as well. Two of our best friends from growing up our two sisters Victoria, who’s still my best friend and Sarah, her sister, who is now my brother’s partner, and they have a baby together. They’re both previously married, but it’s kind of like walking back to the four of us used to work there. And Victoria and I used to just the bread would arrive fresh out the bakery, we would grab a life and we would just eat a whole loaf of bread. Often so yeah, there was green.
Jason Baum 05:41
I think at that age, I would have just worked for food. You wouldn’t have to get maybe even still, I don’t know, don’t tell anyone.
Helen Beal 05:50
So yeah, I did lots of jobs. And then I wanted to get a cat and I was talking to my mother about this recently, you know how memories change for different people like you remember things differently. The way I remember is that I said I wanted a cat and my mom said yes, you can get a cat if you learn how to look after cats. So I said fine, I’ll go and get a job. And Catherine, my mom tells it differently. She just thinks I wanted to work in the category which is fine. I ended up with the car and the job in the country. And I worked there for years from about 13 and actually all three University as well. They paid me handsome me to be the Chiefs chief chalet maid so I would go around and coordinate the daily cleans for the cats that were spending their holidays with us.
Jason Baum 06:27
But the internet like a boarding like for cats that come to be clean. Okay, kennel Okay,
Helen Beal 06:34
exactly like kennels for cat. So it’s when you go on holiday, you don’t leave the cat home and your AMC, you put it in, you put it in a little shed, basically. And some other people feed it clean up after it for you. And then you go and get it later, we just
Jason Baum 06:46
left a really big bowl of food. And his works are so smart, they can take care of themselves.
Helen Beal 06:54
Exactly. And they won’t eat it all at once. Like he would just go that’s a very big dinner I see I worked in catering and it was there that I did. I ended up writing my first thing which was I in access, I wrote a CRM, basically a customer relationship management system in access because we got bored of using the cards in the boxes. And then a university I went to university in 1992 in 1995. So quite early on in the internet. And I’d read a lot of books before I went and did my degree which was English literature and language. So when I got there, I discovered that they had this modular approach, which meant I would have been rereading a lot of the books that I already read. And I really wanted to read all the new stuff, the modern literature, and there was no real way to get to that. So I ended up with this really weird hotchpotch of modules, one of which was English and computing. And that’s where we started to learn about this stuff called HTML and HTTP and the internet. And we did this whole other bit, which I found really interesting, which about NLP, but actually, not neuro-linguistic programming, but natural language parsing. So this concept that everyone has their own idiolect. So you have your own vocabulary of words that you would use, and I have mine, and that we can tell who’s writing by the use of certain words. So you can use it to do data crunching and analysis on like one text and say, was it Shakespeare that wrote this? Or was it bacon, and that was quite interesting. So I got more interested in computing. Also needed to pay my way through university, my parents helped and there were grants and stuff, but wanted extra cash. So I ended up doing a lot of temping, and nearly every temping role I did took me into some sort of computing organization. Probably the most notable is the one that probably triggered us wanting to record this podcast.
Jason Baum 08:45
So there’s a lot of there was like the data entry. Right. Right. So okay, so let’s set it up for everybody. So so this was a data entry job, which would you care to elaborate then I guess on what what we were entering.
Helen Beal 09:02
We worked in an office, which is above the valley shoe shop on a street called Pesco Street in Windsor, which overlooks Windsor Castle, beautiful balcony outside and we would sail again, very elegant, very beautiful place. And we’d sit at our desks. And this is again, probably going to blow people’s minds. We used to work on computers that had chips in them that were two eight sixes. They were very, very early and slow chips. And in fact, and the screens are green screen right there was no GUI on them. It was all just keep key controls. And we were key so fast that the 286 is couldn’t keep up so do remember that a lot of a lot of me when you keying the data in, but the data would arrive in the mornings and stacks of paper. And the paper had been collected from all of the garages or I think you call them gas stations in American and at gas stations. You can buy all sorts of different things but some of the things So you can buy a gas station. So magazines, and some of the types we had was for a specific sort of adult magazine. Whole whole set of titles, adult magazines. Sorry,
Jason Baum 10:15
Helen Beal 10:17
Yeah. He’s a more acceptable but yes, pornography but also garden as well and some other.
Jason Baum 10:24
Of course it’s all so it’s all together in one big pile together. Yeah, you have to sort through that,
Helen Beal 10:32
we would just go just five copies may four copies and just input the data that way. And then that’s how we would know how much to pay the gas station or petrol garage, what they’d what they’ve been doing, and we did paint as well. And then there was this classic day when it was a family owned business. And one of the sons decided who would diversify the business. And it seemed like when we got there, so me and my friend, Steve met this job, and we’re still in touch. Now we became great friends bonded over this experience. But we turned up to work one day, and the whole office was full of marital aids and starting a company, but decided to diversify this business. And it just bought
Jason Baum 11:13
bought a whole new business line. Just opening up the channels of revenue. Wow, that’s, that’s, that’s pretty interesting. We’ve never had someone come on the podcast and share something like that before.
Helen Beal 11:25
And it’s amazing what things you know, what you experienced when you go through these careers, these different businesses that you meet that do these different things.
Jason Baum 11:35
And that’s when you’re like, I need to do this for a living.
Helen Beal 11:39
And it was a series. So that was one of my temping roles. And there were loads of them. I remember there was a PR company in a barn near slough that I was at as well. I think there I was just stuffing envelopes. I remember a lot of envelope stuffing. And I graduated with my English literature, language degree. And I’ve spoken to a journalist that works in a pub that I lived near, sorry, that I worked in where I knew where I lived. And he, we talked about journalism, he said, Well, basically, you need to be able to kind of sell your grandmother and I thought, that doesn’t really sound like me. And I looked at publishing, and it was very old boys, sort of old school network. And I’d actually been for an interview a part of BBC World publishing, and I felt it was very, what we call Tory politics, or very right wing conservative politics, which I don’t really align to. So I was feeling a little bit like, I don’t know what to do. And then this is where the why and the purpose, the intent comes in, or the lack thereof, because I literally thought chamois, just gonna throw it out to the universe and see where it blows me. And it blew me to this company called us robotics to begin with. So I decided temping to them. And we’ve gotten quite well. And they said, We’re going to get your, we’re going to get your headcount, we’ll put you 18 months, initially, we’ll do six months in sales, six months in marketing, and six months in support and the end of 18 months, we’ll look at which one you like best and which one work best, and then we’ll put you there permanently. I said, that sounds good. I like you’re still in Windsor. And they said, Okay, we’ll go and get the headcount. And then they didn’t have any work for me or any budget while they were getting the headcount. So I took another temping role. And that was at a company called Lotus who two weeks before had been bought by IBM for the then the biggest transaction in history. It was like a $1 billion transaction, the biggest now we see once a multiples 10s of billions. And I got there and I was there for an issue on a two week contract. While I think a chap called Jess, one of the sales directors, his sales admin was on holiday. I thought this is quite good. I thought Lotus Notes actually quite a lot more interested in rack mounting modems. So I kind of stayed there, and just bashed on people’s doors until they gave me a job. So initially, I got a sales admin job. And I’ve kind of noticed these salespeople, and they looked like they were having a quite a lot of fun, and be earning quite a lot of money. I thought this looks good. So I pushed down the doors. And the third time around, I got my job in sales. So IBM, and that’s really, I guess, where everything started.
Jason Baum 14:15
So see, I mean, went from being an English major. You were doing your own programming, though. On the side, right. I mean, you were doing that
Helen Beal 14:21
earliest pause my chalet mates job. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Baum 14:25
And then And then obviously, your data entry job, but then so then you you, it led you too to the IBM Lotus Lotus Notes. Job. So when you say that you were kind of like bashing on the doors. What were how were you pursuing it? Like were You were you I mean, there was no LinkedIn. So how are you pursuing that back?
Helen Beal 14:45
It was all internal. So the first time I kind of stood up and said I’d like a job and then I got there like put your temp kind of reaction. And then they were like, okay, and like, you know, tried to do a really good job. So I kind of, you know, reconfigured the filing system and got some new post, you know, slots in and, and made some really big onboarding perhaps there was a couple of wobbles. I remember walking in one day, I may have had the permanent job by then it but I walked in one day. And Rob, my very good friend said he deleted the CRM yesterday. Right? The whole, I said, Sorry, what
Jason Baum 15:23
just deleted it.
Helen Beal 15:25
And yet it just deletes it apparently. And I said, Well, how on earth did I do? It? I’ve restored it. Now. I was like, how I’m just the sales admin. I could even do the temps how’s that? How can I possibly have had the rights in the system to do that? And I actually use that lesson quite a lot with other people because we blame people so much for things that go wrong. But quite often that, you know, like, we blame people when they’ve worked for a bank, you know, Nick Leeson, and they’ve traded loads of dollars made a bad trade, and suddenly it’s all on that person is the system often that’s broken? I’ve seen it in restaurants, or had really bad service and blamed on the waitress. It’s not the waitress system.
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Jason Baum 16:42
Yeah, I’ve never even do even training sometimes. You know, I was actually just talking to, to my brother about this. He’s a, he’s a police officer, and they have to maintain a certain score with their their shooting. And last year, he failed this year, he was in the top of his whatever, you know, he had one of the top scores. And it’s because he spent the time training. But he’s like, the reason you got a low score, I don’t know if enough should be saying this on the podcast. So maybe we’ll cut this but, but he was talking about his drill sergeant in the academy, and he’s like, he would just yell at him. And he’s like, when he would shoot, he was always bad. He wasn’t good at it. It was something he had to learn. Because I mean, it’s not something you’re born with. And he’s like, you’re doing it wrong. Because like, okay, but great. How do I do it? Right. So like, teach me, but but you’re not, but they weren’t teaching. So sometimes it’s like, it’s training. It’s how you’re taught. And if you’re just not taught, and you’re just yelled at for doing something wrong, that’s not really a way you’re going to learn.
Helen Beal 17:42
Completing what you’ve just described is absolutely the way of working that we try and talk about in terms of the culture of DevOps and transformational leadership. It’s not about punishing, berating people, it’s about helping people self discover improvement. So you shouldn’t be telling someone they’re doing it wrong. You should be helping them discover, you know, what happens if you experiment with turning the gun slightly to the left, or, you know, putting your right foot forward, but not going? Well? You’re doing it all wrong.
Jason Baum 18:12
Here. Here’s an example. I used to play piano my this back. This was because, you know, I’m not. I don’t know, growing up in the 90s was a weird period, because I feel like you’re you’re leaving late, late 80s, early 90s. It was like, there’s the way of the past and the way of the future. And they were kind of meeting in one and it was like some things that were acceptable, which would now you look back and are like, Whoa, that was definitely not acceptable. Anyway, I had a piano teacher who used to slap my hand, every time I did something wrong, which now you’re like, Oh, my God, this child abuse. But you know, back then, I don’t know. Just just par for the course I guess. So. You slap my hand. And it’s like, how am I gonna learn from that? No one wonder I ended up quitting piano. Like when I look back on it. No one’s teaching me.
Helen Beal 18:56
Yeah, totally not loud now. But I think the more we understand about neuroscience, that kind of behavior becomes quite interesting because what she’s creating or created in you is basically a fear response to a really bad way of learning because the fear response basically creates a reaction that massively interferes with our frontal lobe, which is where all our cognitive load is happening. So if you’re fearful and anxious, suddenly you can’t even think straight, which means your chances of learning are massively reduced. So it’s absolutely not right,
Jason Baum 19:29
because all your adrenaline’s going into being afraid like the fighter fighter flight
Helen Beal 19:36
sevens. Yeah. It’s not a clever way to teach.
Jason Baum 19:39
Did you? Did you take psychology? Because I didn’t
Helen Beal 19:43
find a complete hobbyist around its application to the workplace. And that happened because like many people in your 20s and early 30s You have romantic adventures and I wanted to learn more about what was happening and I stumbled across a book called Why We Love by neuroscientists call Dr. Helen Fisher, who then became like the chief adviser for chemistry.com, which is match.com in the UK, and probably Europe. And she did loads of MRIs, MRI scans, MRI scans on people that were in love or just been just broken up or hurt, were yearning for somebody discovered all these different patterns in the brain of what was going on, but also these different hormonal patterns. So what’s happening with things like the serotonin and the cortisol, and she discovered kind of the pattern of how why humans fall in love and how it happens and what’s happening biologically. And that kind of opened the gateway into neuroscience, me. And then, early on, in my DevOps consulting career, we decided that we would do a breakfast briefing on goals and motivations. And I signed a table to talk about, and I stumbled across another book by a chap called David Rock, called your brain at work. And in that he identifies what you just talked about. So the amygdala and the fight or flight syndrome, not syndrome, the fight, fight or flight reaction, and how it happens at work. So it’s, it’s our lizard brain, it’s the most fundamental evolutionary part of our brain. So a lot of stuff, our behavior goes right back to it. And he identified he calls it his scarf. acronym, so he has five, maybe major motivational styles. So S is for status. C is for certainty. A is for autonomy, R is relatedness. And F is for fairness. And what he says is like, you have that if you’re, if you’re motivated by autonomy, which I am, and somebody tries to micromanage you, that’s the threat. And that makes you will have fight or flight and you get that reaction at work. And there’s so many applications, you know, we just talked about learning around it as well. We’re discovering so much about the brain all the time at the moment is so this great mystery that’s unraveling in front of us. It’s so exciting. Yeah, yeah.
Jason Baum 21:52
Yeah, that’s a defensiveness, right that everyone has when you’re being micromanaged. The first impulse is to be defensive. And that’s the, that’s the fight or flight. Yeah, yeah, I was I was a psych minor. And I am the son of a therapist and grandson of a therapist, and, and ever so everybody in my family is way too analytical about everybody else. But but But it’s so funny for me to, to on these podcasts learn that there are so many Principles of Psychology in DevOps. And I’m taking DevOps foundation right now. So I’m learning even more but, yes. So it’s interesting, because I can imagine that must be helpful in your career to know about these, these principles.
Helen Beal 22:36
Absolutely. And you should take DevOps leader as well, because we put even more psychology now we’ve got like the Coleman’s topic, Thomas Tillman’s conflict model, we’ve got the Drama Triangle, we’ve got all sorts stuff in the devil’s leader course that you’ll find really interesting. And I think that’s one of the things I’ve really loved about DevOps. And I think a lot of people have in the technology industry in that it’s feels like one of the first times we’ve been allowed to talk about culture and culture is created by behavior and behavior is psychology is ultimately the brain. So we are having these conversations about these analytical say, conversations about what actually makes us tick, and why we react and operate in certain ways, instead of just talking about the bits and bytes and technology. And it’s incredibly helpful about getting conflict out of the workplace, making the workplace more purposeful and more joyful, because we’re allowed to have this conversation. So it’s not all about just do your work. It’s about let’s all do the right work in the right way and enjoy it at the same time.
Jason Baum 23:37
Yeah, we talked about that a little bit with lingerie last week, about how you know, in the military, she couldn’t really talk about and really, in your career, can’t really talk about yourself too much. You don’t really get into the self, it’s more, you know, you as whoever the what I am this title at this company, and that’s who I am in that moment. It’s like, but that’s so far from the truth. We are all in the bed, we are all people. And, and I think it’s important to get to know what makes people tick, because then you learn how to work with them, or you learn what motivates them. And you and it’s so important, and hopefully when we break down the stigma of mental health and and just you know, the what makes people tick, I think sometimes scares people. I’ll be honest, I think that’s scary to some people.
Helen Beal 24:26
And I think I’m going to propose my thought on why those for the first time, I think we’re just not used to doing it. And I think it’s about vulnerability. It’s about you know, if they show us, us them, then I’m going to have to show them me and we’re just not used to feeling trusted in but having that trust to be able to be to show ourselves that openly and transparently.
Jason Baum 24:50
That’s what I love about this podcast is that sometimes we will we’ll randomly get into this topic and I feel like we could spend forever on it. So you know, cuz This is this podcast is about that this, I think that’s what I think we’re finding is that this is the safe space to talk about those issues and talk about yourself. And, you know, one of the things makes me think of is, I guess, I don’t know if this is the right way to say it. But for DevOps, the human side, I think a lot of times what I hear is like soft skills. And I think that is the worst term, because soft skills, to me almost implies that it’s easy. And I think soft skills, in many ways comes harder to most people, the ability to understand what makes someone tick, the ability to reach out to someone who maybe believes in something differently than you to see the world with a different lens other than your own. It’s very, very difficult.
Helen Beal 25:54
I think we stopped calling them soft skills, a couple of reports ago, because because of exactly these conversations that me and Evelyn Jain had, they’re not so soft, somehow devalues them. And I think we reflect them as human skills because they are so important. And actually, one of the interesting things happening in the DevOps recruitment space is that most people you ask if you ask them, if they want to hire on technical ability, or the ability to empathize and work as a team, they will choose the ability to empathize and work as a team, it’s so widely recognized that the ability to be able to collaborate with people and work alongside people are so important, and we know the technical skills can be taught. B, it’s very difficult to teach empathy, I think, I suspect, there are things that can be done. I don’t think team building is probably the way to do it. I think it needs to be more fundamental than that, in terms of, as you say, creating safe spaces, creating psychological safety and giving people the time and the permission to get to know each other. And perhaps part that’s part of it as well, people feel that getting to know each other isn’t work. So the work I’m doing not getting paid to discover how many children you’ve got what you like doing weekend.
Jason Baum 27:09
Yeah, I wonder what you know, that pandemic and working from home has done to that, you know, and think in some ways, we’re talking about it more, so maybe it’s helped. But it’s also created a an environment where not only are you on your own all day, and the connections that you make through zoom, or you know, those are, those are connections, but they’re not the same. We have less water cooler moments, we have less, you know, in the lunchroom conversation. And I wonder what that does to, you know, maybe not URI who have already had the experience of working in an office and we know how to make the connections and it comes naturally because you know, you need to talk to someone in order to be able to work on a project with them. But to someone who may be new in their career, I often wonder what that’s going to do down the line. Like if you go straight into working remote. I’m just curious, because it’s such a different world to come into.
Helen Beal 28:08
I agree with you. And I think you’ve made the point exactly there that we’ve got established network. So I talk to the same people most weeks, occasionally new people come into my life, not nearly as much as they would have done if I’d been traveling around and going to conferences, but every time I talk to one of the people in my network will be consciously spend time doing a bit of bonding, talking about what’s going on in their lives, it’s good what they’ve been up to. But for somebody that hasn’t got an established network, it must feel very lonely, I would think and more difficult to have those conversations with people that you’re only just meeting now that you’re you know, going to a new workplace. So, so yeah, I really hope that the younger people that are in that process of building their networks do get more opportunities to do more face to face time because I think it is a lot easier to do that empathetic bonding, when you’re in the same room.
Jason Baum 28:59
Definitely. So, you know, we’re coming close to the end of the podcast and I hate for it to end because I feel like we could talk about this all day. This has been a really fun conversation. You know, what, what are what excites you for the future of DevOps right now.
Helen Beal 29:17
It’s got to be value stream management, anyone that knows me will know that those words are coming straight out of my mouth, who for me, it is absolutely the next evolution of DevOps it as a DevOps coach and consultant when I discovered it and blocked so many problems I was having with DevOps, particularly around being able to see around the lifecycle and understand where all the delays and the problems were and justify to people why we needed to make changes. And I’m sure I’m allowed to do a plug. The Institute has just launched in partnership with the value stream management consulting with the first value stream management foundation course of its type. It’s focused on digital value streams. It’s been out just over a week. We’ve had quite a few certifications go out door already. spin very exciting and lots of great feedback. But yeah, for me, this is a massive game changer. DevOps is basically the toolkit that we use to unlock all of the value in the in the value stream. So the to go hand in hand, but it just takes our, our 1012 years of DevOps thinking to another level in my mind.
Jason Baum 30:20
Awesome. Helen, thank you so much for coming on. And and sharing with us like we you already shared, think something that we might not have known about you before. So I’m not even gonna ask that question, because I don’t know what else you’re gonna pull out. This has been a great conversation, and I can’t thank you enough for coming on. And I hope you come back because I think we have a lot more to talk about.
Helen Beal 30:40
Thank you for having me. I’d love to once you’ve done DevOps leader, let’s do another one about the tools in there. Yeah,
Jason Baum 30:46
you got it. I could talk about this stuff all day. Thank you again. And thank you for listening to this episode of the humans of DevOps Podcast. I’m going to end this episode the same as I always do, encouraging you to become a premium member of DevOps Institute to get access to even more great resources just like this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and most of all, stay human, live long and prosper.
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