March 28, 2022
On this episode of the Humans of DevOps, Jason Baum is joined by Mason McLead. They discuss:
- What organizations need to know to attract, retain and ensure the highest levels of productivity from their DevOps team
- How is DevOps productivity measured? How productivity should NOT be measured?
- What can various levels of productivity indicate for teams?
- What challenges are software development teams facing in 2022?
- The great resignation
Thanks to our episode sponsor Kolide!
Voted Best 25 DevOps Podcasts by Feedspot
Mason McLead is the CTO of Software.com, a DevOps metrics platform that helps teams measure and improve their organization’s DevOps performance. He leads the design and development of the company’s technology, platforms, and products, which collect data across the stack, analyze over 20 million daily events from its community of over 250,000 developers, and create valuable metrics and insights for engineering teams.
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Have questions, feedback or just want to chat? Send us an email at [email protected]
Please find a lightly edited transcript below
You’re listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SKIL framework.
Mason Mclead 00:16
Like this is very much a team effort kind of domain that we’re in and measuring at the individual. It’s just the wrong place to measure. You’re going to measure at a higher level, like what is the overall input and the overall output? And how is that affecting your consumers?
Jason Baum 00:34
Hey, everyone, it’s Jason Baum, Director of Member experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the Humans of DevOps podcast. Welcome back. Hope you had a great week, last week. This week, we have another great episode planned for you, we’re going to dive into what engineering origin orgs need to know in order to attract, retain and ensure the highest levels of productivity from their DevOps teams. This is a big topic, I think, is really relevant. I know. At some point, during the conversation, we’re going to get into the great resignation, something that’s very topical going on right now. And so much more. And with me to discuss this topic, is our guest, Mason McLean. And Mason is the CTO of software comm a DevOps matrix platform that helps teams measure and improve their organization’s DevOps performance. He leads the design and development of the company’s technology platforms and products, which collect data across the stack, analyze over 20 million daily events from its community of over 250,000 developers, and create valuable metrics and insights for engineering teams. Mason is here with me right now. And we’re really happy to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us.
Mason Mclead 01:52
Thanks, Jason. I’m looking forward to this conversation. I think we got a lot to talk about.
Jason Baum 01:56
Awesome. Yeah, I agree. And so with that, are you ready to get human?
Mason Mclead 02:01
Let’s do it. Awesome.
Jason Baum 02:03
So let’s just go right into, you know, how is DevOps productivity measured?
Mason Mclead 02:12
Yeah, I mean, it, it is kind of interesting that you know, the way that I see DevOps is, its purpose is really to make the systems and the developers more productive. So when we say that we’re measuring DevOps, productivity, we’re like measuring the productivity of people making productivity. So, so I think it’s kind of silly to say in a sentence, but when you think about it, if your people that are working for you, there, their job is to make other people’s work better, if their work is better, you get a multiplier effect on it. So we’re kind of measuring an even more important level of productivity for these DevOps systems and the people that put them into place, as well as their end result of having a well-running system that, you know, in to get on the human side of it, that’s not frustrating for people to work in, that isn’t holding people back, as developers put a lot of time and effort and DevOps engineers as well into what they build, and putting it into then a pipeline to get it out to production, that just is all starts and stops and is frustrating and takes a long time. Like, it’s a really easy way to make people frustrated and less satisfied. So when we’re measuring DevOps productivity, we’re measuring the productivity of all of that. And, you know, the approach that we’ve taken, is really to measure at the system level. So there’s a concept called Value Stream Mapping, it comes from manufacturing and other places, you know, historically, but it’s been applied to development and DevOps much more recently. And, you know, the main concept to come out of that is you measure as close to the customer at the beginning as you can, and as close to the customer at the end, as you can. So when did a request come in? And then when was that request fulfilled? And when did the customer actually see it and get their hands on it? And so by measuring the time between those two things, you got your overall lead time. You can see how productive that that isn’t in that terms. And then you can cut it into the main pieces of what it takes to create whatever the feature is or refine whatever it is. Put it into review. How’s your team jumping on to that if you’re doing photo request reviews? How quickly does it go through tests? Are they failing often does it take a long time to get through that stage? What is your pipeline look like to get to production and how long does that take and other manual steps, how often are people doing it, you have a schedule, all those things, you can start to piece together into this big map of what it takes to get something from beginning to end. And the customer then has what they’ve asked for. And you know, they’ve got internal customers, of course, in a company, you’ve got the final, external customer. So all those things can get measured in that way. And that’s the view that we look at there. And I think that it’s an important distinction to look at it from the customer’s point of view, versus what I see a lot of people fall into the trap of is stack ranking your engineers and saying, This person made this many pull requests in two days versus this many pull requests this, and we’ve got this like eternal stack rank, whose only purpose that I’ve seen is to, like devalue people at the bottom. And, and really give a very, an incomplete story to what’s going on in your team. So we avoid anything like that, completely. In our product, there is no individual data that you can see about an individual as a manager as another team member, you can see yours, but the team sees theirs. And that’s the line that we draw there.
Jason Baum 06:25
So it’s all in one, it’s how is your team performing?
Mason Mclead 06:30
Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it’s extremely rare, I think, for an individual to make massive product contributions at a bigger, even if you’ve got a few people on your team like this is very much a team effort, kind of domain that we’re in and measuring at the individual level, misses, context misses communication, it misses, if you’re pair programming, it misses all these sorts of things that go into development. And so it’s just the wrong place to measure. You gotta measure at a higher level, like, what are the overall input and the overall output? And how is that affecting your consumers?
Jason Baum 07:11
Yeah, and we’ll, we’ll come back to that. Because I have a lot of feelings about that and an experience. And not just, you know, we look at customer experience, we spent so much time on customer experience where we think, and the collective we lack is employee experience. And I think that’s why we’re seeing what is happening right now, in the job market. So let’s go back to productivity, though. And just to address so when you see low levels of productivity, so you know, you’re measuring the team, you’re seeing low levels of productivity, what does that mean? Is that when you start isolating individuals, how do you what does it mean? And how do you address it? Yeah,
Mason Mclead 08:01
so you know, it. The interesting thing that, that comes about, when you start measuring these things, is when you see your actual numbers, the, what it means to you, and like how impactful it is, is, is very different than when you kind of think about what you’re going to measure. And so for example, we had a period a couple of months ago, where our time to get pieces of work into merged into the main branch was shooting up like really, really fast. And, you know, we realized that people reviewing, like, we looked at that there was no delay there, there was no lack of work coming into this process. And people were working, it was effective, we knew what we were working on. So it wasn’t like a product management sort of issue or prioritization, we found that you know, this was on our data pipeline, we didn’t have a very good way to test. And so what we did is we kind of paused what we’re doing there, we built a staging environment. For our data pipelines, which is not that common. It’s kind of, I think data is at a moment where it’s becoming more software engineering than traditional data analytics. And us being a data product, it’s, you know, very much what we do. So, you know, what we found is that low level of productivity as you can measure it, kind of from the end to end results there was due to us not having the right system in place to address quality concerns and, and making, you know, the team really wanted to make sure that it was correct when it hit production, which I agree with, so I was very happy that they were doing that and you know, they were just missing a tool. So we put that in place, and now it’s you know, smoothed out and that issue was resolved. So that’s what I look for. Whenever I see low productivity coming through a system, usually there’s something wrong with that system. Now on the case that you brought up, like, is it individual? Like, when do you start looking into that? Right? I think that’s where you, as a manager, probably already know, like, if that’s your first inclination, you probably already have a name in mind, of who that probably is. And then it comes in, you know, you, you pick it up during stand-ups, you pick it up during check-ins, or you know, weekly project reviews, stuff like that. You know, that’s the management side of it, and the human side of it, that is different than measuring systems. And I think, you know, I haven’t seen yet a good measurement that can isolate that type of performance, those kinds of like individual performance issues in a way that doesn’t, you know, suffer from getting mixed signals from just other types of behaviors that go on in your organization. So I would say, you, I mean, people can people do measure individual performance, I would suggest to never do that at this point. And, you know, that’s where the human part of being a manager or being a people manager comes in. I’ve had this, you know, several times over my career were, in one time, when I years ago, I brought in a system that did actually stack rank everyone, because I already knew that this person wasn’t a good fit, and that they could do better elsewhere. But I needed like I was, I was newer into management, I wasn’t feeling confident in my decision with that. So I brought in a tool to tell me what I already knew. And then, like, I, you know, so I had it there. And then I, you know, had the human conversation and everything was much better after we had that conversation, and found that person a new place. And they’re doing great, by the way, and great. Yeah, they move to a different state, and they like a manager somewhere else they’re doing, they’re doing awesome. But that system that was in place, I told the rest of the team that I had it, and within a month, they revolted like it was gone. So I think,
Jason Baum 12:27
did you see a productivity issue with that when when you brought that in?
Mason Mclead 12:31
You know, it didn’t affect productivity, because I think the whole team was very dedicated already. And there was nothing wrong, what that kind of tool told me was, the people that I already knew were amazing, are amazing. And the one person that I knew wasn’t a good fit. So that’s the
Jason Baum 12:53
problem with tools, right? Yeah. Especially when it comes to a human issue because it is hard. You know, some things just can’t be put into an algorithm, Some things just can’t be. And culture. I think there’s a lot of things out there that try and a lot of things to do. So that do it. Well, depending on what it is. We spoke to Dan papayas, who’s the CEO of range a few weeks ago, and range is actually a great product, I actually started introducing it in my team just to test it out. And not to talk too much about that. But I’ll just say there’s something to it, because it’s about like, what they do that’s different is mood mapping, which is different, because that doesn’t give you an insight into performance. But it gives you an insight into the minds of the people who are performing about what’s going on. That said you can only get what people are willing to share. But that goes back to kind of the grand topic of what we’re talking about here with levels of productivity is also what can the organization do to maybe get that right talent? And then when you do have those star performers that you’re talking about, how do you retain them? And that’s a big question. And that’s something I think a lot of organizations are struggling with right now.
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Mason Mclead 15:22
Yeah, I agree. I mean, it. I think on both sides of those, that’s always the hard thing. I mean, competition is fierce for talent, there’s more and more software companies, you know, coming into existence every day, they need to hire software engineers, and traditional companies that weren’t doing their own software engineering now are. So they’re hiring. So you’ve got big names, you’ve got new startups, all of that searching for people to come and, and provide value in software development. So it’s challenging at times to hire really good people. And, you know, software.com is a fully remote company. So I find that to be a huge advantage that we can find really skilled people really smart people anywhere. And we’re not geographically confined to, you know, Southern California or the Bay Area, not that there’s a lack of people there. But you know, your your, if you are in office only place, which obviously, things have changed very much recently. But if your plan is to go back to only at the office, you’re geographically confining yourself, again, to that competitive space to that talent pool. And one of the things that can really open up, your ability to hire really great people is to just open up where you can hire from. And, you know, it’s, it’s a transition that we’ve all or most of us have had to make over the past two years coming up on three years. Geez.
Jason Baum 17:10
It’s kind of crazy. I know, this is it. Yeah, it’s actually the fourth. What is it? 2019? Yeah. So so we’re this is actually the fourth calendar year, which is even insane to think about. But now, do you think that so the pandemic, obviously, so let’s talk about that a bit more, because the pandemic played a huge role in what’s going on? Both from the organization standpoint, and the talent standpoint, you know, the employee standpoint. Do you think that when we made that shift remote, it was sort of a wake up call to organizations that, hey, we can do this. And it’s, it wasn’t that hard. Everybody kind of made the transition within a couple of weeks. And people thought that this, this was going to take years to make up if we’re going to go to an all I mean, I remember people talking about that this is going to take forever to go to all remote. It’s not even a possibility. And now that we are able to go back to the office, many places, many places are opening back up. Do you it’s amazing to see we have a career board. On our website, there’s ones all over, it’s amazing to see how many jobs are actually still isolating themselves to a talent pool by on site only. I think even hybrid in some instances, like when you’re hiring new talent, it’s interesting to me, because why not open up yourself to everybody?
Mason Mclead 18:45
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that transition that was made, and it was so fast, and people just responded, and we’re able to go and do it. I think that there’s a couple things going on there. One, I think a lot of the engineers or people that went remote, had a sneaking suspicion that they could have done that the whole time already. And that the office wasn’t really necessary. I think other organizations inside of business feel differently about that. And they, you know, need or really desire that in person, energy and feeling and like that’s, that’s what they really wanted to see. You know, I think a lot of people already knew that they, in the back of their minds that this could be done. But I think one of the reasons that that transition was so successful for most people, is that everyone had to do it all at once. It wasn’t Okay, a couple people can go work remote. And then it may be a couple more if that works out. Okay. Because at that point, you’re now split. You’re in this mixed state of some people, right? A lot of people still at the office, and the communication style is now split. And that’s a culture issue too. Yeah. And which means it doesn’t work. Yeah. Like Hallway Conversations are still the norm in that type of situation. And so the people that are now working remote, have a communication disadvantage, because they’re not there to do that. And it’s not being written down. Written language, you know, not surprisingly, is the one thing that makes all of this stuff work. And when everyone had to go remote, you had to write it down. Once you got tired of being in a Zoom meeting all day, right. So like what people learn, Oh, get like, we don’t have to do that all day, I could just write something down, make a document, send a message, even like Slack in all the threads and everything you can get into is better than being on a zoom call all day. Because you can go back to it like we do our stand ups extremely quickly, because we write it all down. And we don’t just like read it to each other. Again, like we know that we can read refer back to right, right. So it’s like, if you have a blocker, bring it up, otherwise, move on and like get to the actual work. So it streamlines that type of communication really well. And I think that’s what made it work is that everyone had to do it all at once. And so you made that whole communication shift.
Jason Baum 21:21
Yeah, because we had remote work before I, you know, we had telecommuting, I was actually working remote right before the pandemic for a year and a half. And you know, what, I was actually an employee who was remote when the majority of the company was not, and you’re right. So my office was in Chicago, I’m in New Jersey, New York area. And I would have to fly out there. But yeah, I mean, there’s so many conversations that when I would fly out there, and I would spend time, it’s like, I just picked up a year’s worth of information in a week, or something. And yeah, now when we’re all remote, we’re all on the same page. We’re on the same boat. i It does worry me with every with people going back. Yeah, that that’s going to happen again, in hybrid spaces. But as a chief executive, you know, is is there a piece of you that wonders with people going back? Are we making this decision? And again, it’s the general we, for motion, like to just to make some people feel better? Because they want to be around people? Or is there a lid? Because for business reasons, there are so many reasons not to do it overhead? I mean, there’s so many that I could list out that when people are making usually a financial decision, I feel like there are so many checkmarks that we have learned to make remote work, sort of a standard. Is this like, I don’t know, is this a very emotional decision? Because people want to be back in an office with people?
Mason Mclead 22:53
I think it really is. I mean, we’ve got some data that we’re still refining about people that are working in an office with other people and people that are working remotely and what the difference in like, even in low-level metrics of how much time they’re spending coding, what’s the actual raw output of that. And it’s, you know, for if you average all the kind of cohorts, it’s roughly the same. So if you as a business are making, you know, rent payments of, instead, you’re like a medium-sized to do $10 million a year. And you’re getting roughly the same, possibly worse productivity from your engineers and your software company, you’ve wasted $10 million, that could have been used to hire more people. And so let’s take even the case where the productivity is 5% less. You could have hired more engineers for $10 million a year, like that annual budget can go a long way than having the office or, you know, cut aside you know, a few million so that you can have quarterly or semi-annual get togethers and like go have fun together. Because I think that the human bonding side of it is important. Yeah, and seeing each other in person is important. We still do that. It’s software, we’re we don’t have an office anywhere we never have. But we still get together. We’re planning a trip right now. For everyone to come and go surfing at the beach. So you know, love that. So you know, really fun stuff like that, that does make a difference. So I think people are looking for that connection again. Especially if they’ve been isolated in during the pandemic like before, and you know, it kind of talked from startup land before the pandemic, the cultural center of our lives work and the people that we work with and what we’re doing and the mission of the company and In the effort of doing that, and going to the happy hours, and like that was where you spent time with people, and you learn new things. And that was missing all of a sudden, and there wasn’t a replacement, because we couldn’t go out and do stuff. Or at least not nearly as much stuff as we could before.
Jason Baum 25:15
And you could only sit on a zoom happy hour for so long. Yeah,
Mason Mclead 25:19
like awkwardly talking over each other, it doesn’t work the same. So I think, yeah, people definitely want that we’re human, we desire to have that community, and work for a lot of people is that community, I think, if we stay in this full remote mode long enough, we’ll have our work community. But we’ll realize that we have time to actually have our own communities as well. And that will start to take on more importance, then, co workers and everything else. So like, I’m fortunate enough to have a family that I live with. So like, I’m busy taking care of the kid hanging out with the wife, and doing all that. So you know, I’ve got my community there. I’ve got friends down the street. And that’s the part that makes up what I used to have, because I used to be in the office. Man, I’m embarrassed to say how many hours a day? Yeah. And, you know, that was it? And so, you know, there’s, there’s, I think there has to be a replacement for most people, because we desire that. I think we can find it in better ways outside of being back at the office.
Jason Baum 26:35
Yeah, I feel so strongly about this, this issue. So I’m going to try to tone it down. But, you know, go knock on the pulpit here. But I believe there always needs to be a little bit of separation here of church and state, so to speak. You know that with that, especially coming out of college and starting in the workforce, many people make their adult quote-unquote, friends through work, right. And I get that, especially if you’re single, if you’re young, that there is you know, this is where potentially you make friends, you make some connections, who knows. But, but for those of us, like you said, you know, we have families, we have the frame, we have friends, we have what we, you know, I think what makes us happy, I think over the past few years. Happiness, at least for me, and I know a lot of people feel this way. We’ve done our introspection, there’s been a lot of introspection. We had a lot of time to kind of sit there. And especially without the outside noise for two-plus years now. Yeah, we didn’t have the noise. And yeah, I think we reassessed maybe our what, what is valued when it comes to social interaction, especially.
Mason Mclead 27:53
And I, you know, I think that segues great into the topic of the great resignation, yes, as well. Because I think that’s, that is the underlying cultural current that is driving a lot of that, where we’ve had that time to go, Wait a minute, my entire life, isn’t that. So why was it consuming my entire life? In a
Jason Baum 28:15
matter of hours? Like I just said,
Mason Mclead 28:18
Mm hmm. And so, you know, that is, I think, a key driver of it. I think another is, you know, now that people kind of have that competence going, Okay, this isn’t my entire life, they can look at it much more, you know, sort of mathematically about like, okay, is this a good working environment? For me? And, you know, of all the things that we were talking about earlier with the measurements, that’s where you can start to see like, is the system even built? Well, for me to work in? Am I able to actually do good work, or is it just going to be frustrating? The entire time. And if you find yourself as, as the company, with a system that just frustrates the people trying to work in it, like you’re going to find that they’re going to find somewhere else. It also, I think it’s a culture critical to invest in that DevOps in order to make the system better, and also to make the developer experience better. And obviously, speaking directly about software engineers, but making developer experience better making it be a more streamlined collaborative environment to get that work done. And again, measuring in a way that feels safe, not one that like goes and makes the stack rank so you can like, cut the 10% and higher again, and you know, those kinds of very aggressive management techniques that have been talked about over the decades.
Jason Baum 29:52
Yeah, cuz I’m wondering with a great resignation, you know, how many of the people leaving so so There’s, I think a few things going on here. You have people leaving their jobs because they’re unhappy with something going on the culture, like you said, I mean, most of it, I would say is culture right now, like, like you were alluding to. And I think one of the first things people ask on job interviews is, how’s the culture? What about the cult, you know, they want to dive into the culture more. So I would say, in some cases, I have a very good friend who just left a very important position in a very big well-known company, mainly because of culture, and gave it up because of culture. And I know that they’re not the only ones who are doing that right now. But then how many people are then? Okay, so that person left that job? That’s like a dream job to someone else, they’re gonna go fill that job? How long is it until they leave? That it’s like an endless, you know, you know, what I’m trying to say here? But what are some things that that, you know, software.com does to, you know, attract great talent, but more importantly, retain it?
Mason Mclead 31:01
Yeah. So, I mean, for attracting I mean, we, we hire from anywhere we have, you know, the, the normal sorts of perks of unlimited PTO, the things the bullet lists, the healthcare and all that stuff, those are, that’s just how you get in the door. Like, you’ve got to have those things in order. You know, I’ve been able to, thankfully draw from my network, and, and then people here, draw from their network, and pull people in that they know, are really good. And so it’s, you know, it. At that point, I think it really something that we’ve been able to do, and it’ll be different for everyone is, when you’ve got those long relationships, and you’ve got people that you can trust and trust you, that is so valuable. And if you’re hiring people that you know, that you don’t know, yet, they’re new to the company new to you, if you can kind of get a sense of Are they someone that you can trust, and like they’ve got those relationships, then if you need to hire more people, they’ll have that network there that you can pull from. And then, you know, that’s how we kind of brought in a lot of our senior people. And we’ve had a great intern program as well, that we brought people on full time. And, you know, being able to actually spend the time to invest in them, when they’re interns, and then give them real work and real support, that makes a huge difference. So that, you know, you’re not just pulling from the same networks, because that will eventually dry up and you don’t always need to hire senior people then shouldn’t at a certain point, we good to have multilayers there. So I think I am a big fan of bringing in interns and training them up and, and having them available to join as well and making it a good place for them to join. So that’s, you know, some of the things we’ve done on the attraction side. At bigger companies that I’ve worked at, I’ve done other things that we could talk about if you want, but we’re like I hired entire teams from startups that are going out of business and, and, and all that. So but on the retention side, which I think is essential.
Jason Baum 33:30
Yeah, I think that’s the most important, right, yeah,
Mason Mclead 33:33
it’s, you know, I’ve got someone today who’s taking a day off so that they said that they’re taking a sanity day because they just got too much stuff to catch up on in their life. And I was, like, great. And we got a bunch of messages saying, I love those days, I hope you have a good one to have some relaxation to so like, the amount of support that people feel on not just their work and what they’re doing and prioritization, making sure they’re working on important things. But them as a person is a huge area for optimizing further attention to us kind of, you know, more techie words there, but it’s a, I think that’s just, that’s the key to is like really caring about them as a person, giving them time to do what they need to do. And, and also, you know, with the amount of work that you’re putting on people and what you’re asking of them, making sure that they understand the why of it, making sure that they understand, you know, if there is a deadline, why is there a deadline, and if it’s artificial, which many are which is totally fine, because it helps you segment work. Let them understand that. You know, if it isn’t done on the first, nothing blows up on the second. Like, it’s okay, if it doesn’t make it but like, that’s what we’re shooting for. So let’s like reasonable under certain reasonable estimations of what time things will take to get done, the ability to control that workflow, so that they, you know, they understand why it’s getting done, what’s the core thing that they’re trying to do, and then they’re the ones doing it, they have the best knowledge about how it works. So if there’s something that needs to get cut, or gets reworked, they need to be empowered to be able to do it, to make it fit within, you know, the agreed upon timeline that we’ve set aside for doing that thing. So I think it’s empowerment, at work, it’s support on their personal lives. And, and you don’t have to be best friends in order to do that, like, you know, it’s I’m not trying to say like, you have to be as soft as possible in like, in, you know, just hang out with all of your coworkers. This is very much work-related. And, you know, there’s a lot of things that I don’t know about people because they have their personal lives. And I’m at work, and they have personal lives. And like, I think that’s one of the big things is making sure that you’ve got a distinction there, they’ve got work relationships, you’ve got good communication because that’s essential to getting it done. But that they can go and take a sanity day and do their stuff. And they don’t have to explain it away.
Jason Baum 36:37
Trust from the organization, that you’re hiring him that you’re hiring adults. I think that’s like the key. Everyone just wants to be treated like an adult. And I think we’re the good organizations get that. I think that’s kind of that’s, that’s the summarize what I’m hearing is, you’re treating people like adults that they can handle the workload, they can understand the workload, they can do it in their time and, and not feel pressured, but at the same time know what the objectives are. I think that’s all we want, right is to be seen and treated as adults. Yep. Yeah. I think that’s a great, great place to kind of to end. Mason, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, we do ask one last question. And this is kind of more, you know, we are about the human side. So this is kind of getting to know you. I love this one last question. If you could be remembered for one thing, what would it be?
Mason Mclead 37:33
I mean, the first thing that popped in my head was for being kind.
Jason Baum 37:39
That’s awesome. I love that. I love that. Yeah, I think we need a lot of kindness in this world, especially right now. And I think this world would be a completely different place. If, if more people saw it that way, for sure. Mason, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time. Really appreciate it. Appreciate everything you had to say. This was such a timely topic. And it was a lot of fun talking about it
Mason Mclead 38:06
with you. Yeah. Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it. And thanks
Jason Baum 38:09
for listening to this episode of the humans of DevOps Podcast. I’m going to end this episode the same way I always do, encouraging you to become a member of DevOps Institute to get access to even more great resources just like this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and most of all, stay human, live long and prosper.
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