On this episode of the Humans of DevOps, Jason Baum is joined by Alfredo Deza, Author, olympian, and technologist helping others learn hard concepts. They discuss his Olympic experience, how he transitioned into IT, advice for the Humans of DevOps and more!

Alfredo Deza is a passionate software engineer, avid open source developer, author, photographer, and former Olympic athlete. He has given several lectures around the world about Open Source Software, personal development, and professional sports. He has rebuilt company infrastructure, designed shared storage, and replaced complex build systems, always in search of efficient and resilient environments. With a strong belief in testing and documentation, he continues to drive robust development practices wherever he is. Check out books by Alfredo Deza!

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Please find a lightly edited transcript below:

Narrator 00:02
You’re listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework.

Alfredo Deza 00:16
People love that and they will just open the doors. I know I would like if someone knocks on my eyelids. excitedly, will these things work? Can I do more? Or System Administrator like, it doesn’t matter. It’s like, Dude, you’re hired, like, what? Can I send you right away?

Jason Baum 00:33
Hey, everyone, it’s Jason Baum, Director of Member experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the Humans of DevOps podcast. Welcome back. Hope you had another great week. I’m super excited well I’m excited every week. But I am super excited this week, especially because if you are a frequent listener to this podcast, you know, I’m a pretty avid sports fan. And I usually go on some sort of sports rant that I eventually have to tie back into the program and then apologize to our producer. But today, I finally get to chat about sports in an official capacity. So the Olympics are here again. I’m sure you know that already. So we thought it would be interesting to bring on a former Olympian. Plus, this Olympian happens to be a cloud advocate at Microsoft. So my guest today is Alfredo de Souza. He’s a passionate software engineer, avid open source developer, author, photographer and a former Olympic athlete, he has given several lectures across the world about open source software, personal development and professional sports. He’s rebuilt company infrastructure, design, shared storage and replace complex build systems, always in search of efficient and resilient environments. With a strong belief in testing and documentation, he continues to drive robust development practices, wherever he is. So Alfredo, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and agreeing to talk sports with me. And a little bit about DevOps and, and tech.

Alfredo Deza 02:14
Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jason, for having me. Super happy to be here and talk about everything. Yeah, sure. Including sports.

Jason Baum 02:23
Awesome. Well, so you’re ready to get human? Yeah. Alright, let’s do it. So tell us first, you know, I guess we should start we teased. You know, you’re, you’re an Olympic athlete. And so, tell us a little bit what what was your sport? What was that experience? Like? And you know, what country did you represent?

Alfredo Deza 02:47
Yeah. So I was born in Peru. And I lived there until I was 26. Almost 26. Yeah, no, 26. And, you know, you reminded me about this one time where there was a reporter and says, like, oh, so how? So? How many months do you have to train for the Olympics? Now that you asked that question, but this person asked me that it’s like, well, like this, this, this reporter like, that’s such a weird thing. So I said, like, well, well, I did that for like, 15 years. So it’s like I’ve been in training for a few months does. I mean, I don’t know if anyone has gone to Olympic Games just by working out like for a few months.

Jason Baum 03:36
So I mean, if I trained for six months, I can’t to go to the Olympics.

Alfredo Deza 03:40
I don’t I don’t think so that I mean, hats off to you. If you managed to accomplish that. That’s That’s intense, but I don’t think it works that way. There’s a lot of competition.

Jason Baum 03:53
I don’t know. I watched the show cheer and my back hurts. So I don’t know if I’m gonna be good for that. But

Alfredo Deza 03:58
yeah, no, it’s it does take a lot of effort didn’t need to me to me years. It took me a good chunk of my life for a while and I did the high jump. I jumped to 27 to two meters and 27 centimeters and that’s I think that’s around seven feet, four inches ish. Something, something around that. Yeah. And I did it for years. My dad also went to the big games. He went to Mexico City. I think that was 1968. And, yeah, I really liked sports since I was a kid, and when I was around 11 years old, I told my dad that I really wanted to like get serious into train and working out. Because there are different ways to train, prepare yourself, and work out. You could say Well, you know, I’m a, I don’t know like I like tennis or I do soccer or do swimming. It’s like, oh, how many times a week or two twice a week or three times a week. And but when you’re really into it, it just never ends. He never stops in multiple, multiple times a day. And when I was in school, I would have to just stop for school. But otherwise, when I got out of high school, he was between 12 times a week, all the way to like close to 18 times a week of workouts is some most days, twice a day in the morning, in the afternoon, how

Jason Baum 05:41
long were the workouts?

Alfredo Deza 05:43
They were usually close to two hours, depending on the type of workout in the offseason it was the word more lengthy, and when the competitions were close by, they were shorter. But I would say on the shorter end, maybe like an hour and 20 minutes and up to two hours.

Jason Baum 06:06
I mean, it’s yeah, it’s a full-time job of working out

Alfredo Deza 06:08
it is and it doesn’t end with when the workout ends, because then the workout ends and then you have to think about recovery. So you have to I would carry my ice packs everywhere in my bandages. So just, you know, put the ice packs in my legs while I was driving back home and, and then taking a nap. And, and I mean, you might think like, Oh, this guy’s taking a nap, and then I would go to the sauna and do some massage sessions and sessions. And some good says like, oh, this is that’s fantastic. That’s great. No, no, it’s not great, because you’re very tired all day long every day. And you really want to just take a break, and you just can’t you have to keep going.

Jason Baum 06:48
And if you don’t do that recovery, you don’t move the next day. So yeah, yeah. Did you ever do those like hyperbaric chambers? Like I did,

Alfredo Deza 06:57
I actually did. But you know what now thinking about them. They really scare me, you know, kind of like when you think about certain situations like oh, that’s, you kind of get into that mentally into that situation and just gets really scary. That’s how I feel about those doing that. But I don’t, I don’t know like it was a thing back in. I mean, but the Bravo is still a thing, but I did them in the early 2000s. And there were just a couple of places that they would do that improve. And I did them, but I can really tell if he did anything. Maybe they were measuring why there was not a way of accurately measuring the impact.

Jason Baum 07:45
Yeah, I feel like that copying like there are all different methods of recovery, and then it seems to change. But like, I mean, that’s the amount of work that you have to put in to be an Olympic Olympic athlete alone, let alone an Olympic athlete, which is like taking it the next degree up, obviously, it’s I mean, it’s intense. So I So how far did you how did you do in the Olympics?

Alfredo Deza 08:14
Well, the Olympics was pretty rough for me. I didn’t do well at all. You know, I think it’s it’s interesting outside of Peru, I don’t live in Peru. I haven’t been living in Peru for the past 15 years. I live in the US now. Outside of Peru, I would say it’s interesting how having been to Olympic Games is seen as a is a huge accomplishment and something worth celebrating. I wouldn’t say it’s so much improved. The reaction is like, you know, probably like, not not, you know, maybe it’s like God, that’s great. You went to the Olympics not something worth celebrating that much, I would say. But in Peru when I was 18 years old, I think this is kind of like what I was more known or recognized back in Peru in 1998. I was 18 years old, and he was the World Junior Championships for track and field I want I became the first-ever World Champion in track and field for Peru. And that that was a big deal that that was a very big deal. And that was in the newspapers and TV and like 100 interviews all the time. And that was huge. And you know, you mentioned you mentioned these things, but I think that the Olympic Games, you know, trying to like I try to keep up that momentum. And that was in 1988, the Olympic games that I went to was in 2004. So it took me a while to get there. And to qualify, you have to jump a certain height. And it was very hard. Then, I would say the usual mentality of an athlete, or a high-performance athlete is to, you’re going there and you’re not just having a, a vacation time or having a blast. I mean, yeah, sure. It’s wonderful, and you’re great environment and full of athletes, and everybody’s, you know, there to compete is a special moment, but not doing well was devastating to me. I was, I was sponsored, I had like I was, I guess you could consider me a professional athlete. And I was, I was a professional athlete, they had a sponsor, and this sponsor decided to drop me while I was at the Olympic Games, not because of my performance, but because they were going bankrupt, and they were not doing well. And so the thing is that that kind of like mark my, my, the end of almost like the end of my career, at least mentally, I just could not stand this. I’m like, not doing well, this is horrible. I can’t keep doing this. I’m 20, almost 26 years old. And this is very hard. So I remember, after, after competing and doing horrendous of the Olympic games, but horrendous by my standards, you know, I’m just gonna ask you are you are the Olympic Games. Yes. You know, you’re working yourself to like, for 15 years to get to some plays, you’re expecting to do well, but it’s really hard. It is really, really hard. You’re trying to accomplish the best error performance in your life. You’re not going to nail it. It’s really difficult. Like when you see an athlete just That’s why like, usually, world records don’t necessarily happen at the Olympic Games. Sometimes they do. But not all the time. And usually, records of the Olympic Games are not, you know, are lesser than the real-world records. Because you know, where records are, like, easier to, to kind of like go um, I think I can nail it between these two or three events. Within these two or three weeks. Maybe I can I can hit it there and then you do and then that’s great. But then it begins it’s like, have seen for years and you have this one time. And that’s it. Oh, yeah.

Jason Baum 12:37
It’s athletes are programmed the same. I feel like you’re there to win. Like no one gets into athlete athletics to not win. So totally get how anything less than that is deemed to yourself as a failure. But in perspective, how many people were competing in high jump at that Olympics?

Alfredo Deza 12:59
I think we were this is you’re asking all the right questions. I think they were 15 I think so. I thought I was probably like 13 or 12 or something like that

Jason Baum 13:13
for 12 or 13. But out of the entire world. Yes. All the athlete so that’s a pretty big accomplishment. So yeah, that’s why it’s when you’re in it I totally get it but at the same time in Lean Leicester the top three in the world you do not get you’re coming home a failure right in your and honestly, I bet for some athletes. It must be an absolute devastate must be devastating. Can I even get to silver or gold?

Alfredo Deza 13:41
Yeah, um, you know, I felt like I failed my country. I felt like my country doesn’t owe me anything. I don’t know anything owe anyone. Like, isn’t it wasn’t like they gave me like, you know, like, a huge house and five cars to just I mean, it wasn’t like that, you know, but I yeah, it would have I felt like I failed. My country I felt like to me was a wonderful way to give happiness and hope and just a general good feeling to people specifically in Peru I think Peru, as it happens with much of Latin America, is a country that continues to fight social and political issues and a lot of corruption. And in I think that whenever there’s a sports event and in a fellow country, man is they’re doing great. This is just fantastic, you know, to give them to give provide happiness to us. Ever seen in such a nice impure way, I would say,

Jason Baum 15:04
you know, it’s also interesting and I feel like we could this is kind of bringing it back to, to tech to work to, you know, to our work. Life is the amount of effort and time and everything that you put into your sport. Whether it be your sport, your craft your job, even though you might be putting in a ton of effort, a ton of work, sometimes the results aren’t there. And it’s not anything that you didn’t do. I mean, you were training for 40 Whatever hours a week, you’re doing all the recut, you’re going to do everything right, you’re eating right, and you spent 16 years 50 Whatever it was, right. 1516 You’re doing it? Yeah, yeah. So and I mean, gosh, man, you could think about anything that you do, and you’re not always going to win. And that is tough for competitive. I’m a competitive person. I played sports, you know, I totally have that mindset. And so, you know, but everybody fails. And that’s, and that’s at some point. And then you have your wins. And you definitely, and the losses mean more because the losses you feel because you still put in the effort. And for some reason, when you don’t have that outcome that you desired. God, that one’s things, because it’s like, well, I still did it all. It feels like yeah, not a waste. It shouldn’t feel that way. But at the moment, it hurts.

Alfredo Deza 16:23
Yeah, I would say professionally, in, in the corporate environment or a regular work your regular nine to five, I would say to me feels a little bit different. The other day, I heard this thing that I really liked. That is there’s no failure, we’re not failing, we’re either learning, or we’re winning. What are we going to do today? Well, all up, I learned like, yes. You know, like in it, I think it’s hard to apply that to professional sports like or if you’re doing something like track and field or swimming or whatever it is because you know, like, yeah, you fail, like sure you could try but it’s just, it’s really hard. What I would do when I was an athlete, he would be like, Okay, next season, I’m just gonna, I’m gonna fix here, when a train better and more in-depth, there’s so much that you can do, you know, like, not in not everybody can run under 10 seconds in the 100-meter dash. I mean, there’s just like, it might not be physically possible for you to accomplish that. So, so let’s, let’s set some reality here. And, but if we’re talking about, you know, performing well at work, and being a good co-worker, you know, I think I don’t want to say it’s easier. But I think there’s more room here for doing well and not necessarily have had devastating failures. So I think that freeze of, you know, there’s, there’s, we’re not failing, we are either learning or winning, I think it’s just great. Because every time that I’ve messed up at work, and I’ve messed up a bunch of times, it’s been like, a learning moment. Not. I know, I know, that stinks. And I know I’m going to do better. And I try to, I tried to put all those stories in every book that I’ve written. Some people don’t like the stories like, all right, why are you talking about a story that happened? Like nobody cares about? Like, there was a comment, someone made these comments like, nobody cares about your horrible boss, than years ago, Alfredo, like, tell us tell us more about logging systems and get to the point. But you know, to me, it’s like, Hey, you want to talk to me? You want me to tell you something useful? I’m going to do that. But I’m going to tell you a story. I’m not I mean, if you want to read something super technical, in not having any context about it, go read a manual. She said I’m not gonna it doesn’t matter. You’ll

Jason Baum 19:08
see the PowerPoint presentation. Yes, yes.

Alfredo Deza 19:12
Go into the terminal, run the man page command, and go read a manual. There’s no story there. It’s just straight to the facts. But that’s not you know, what I try to do is, let me tell you a story. Why I think logging is a good idea. Because let me show you what happened when there was no login or login was impossible. And we tried to solve the problem. And in again, learning moment. Yeah, everything goes. Anybody could

Jason Baum 19:38
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So that’s a great transition than, you know, the the the yearning to learn that you have. How does one go from being a lifelong professional athlete? What is your focus? It has to be I would I mean all the time to become a software engineer and an author.

Alfredo Deza 21:09
Yeah, you know, it wasn’t an easy transition, it was very hard. First off, I decided to leave my country. And both my parents said, this is a horrible idea. You’re the

Jason Baum 21:29
motivation? Yeah. encouragement.

Alfredo Deza 21:31
I mean, they were right. They were right because I didn’t go to college. I mean, I went to college for like, a few months. And then I said, like, I can’t do these theses. Not really, for me, I wasn’t finding myself interested in the stuff that was going on at college. So I just dropped out after a few months. Now consider that like, I didn’t go to college, or I guess technically a dropout. So didn’t go to college didn’t have any other formal education into any career skill whatsoever. No experience working at like I didn’t have, I didn’t perform any work stuff. So it was mostly I’m an athlete. And I do that’s what I do for a living. And in no experience doing anything other than professional sports. So when I say well, I’m moving to the US, it was more of like, whoa, wait a second, you’re going to in what are you going to do in like, in the US like that sounds you’re going to lose your stability, at least here in Peru, doors may open up for you. Because people know you people have heard your name, and they know who you are. And, you know, worst comes to worst. Like they at least know your name. And you’re going to go to us where nobody knows you. But to me, it felt sort of liberating, because I could reinvent myself, I could be someone completely different than for the longest time. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t put any of my track and field accomplishments anywhere in, in any of my profiles. I wouldn’t. It would drive my dad crazy. He would be like very upset that I wouldn’t do that. Because it’s like, are you That’s insane. Like you’re, it’s, it’s it you’re doing a disservice to yourself. This is not a very good strategy for you, especially because you’re starting from scratch. And I agree with that. But I wouldn’t feel comfortable because it even today, to me feels kind of like I don’t want to be perceived as someone that is a showoff. You know, like in, in thank you for asking me these questions. Because I think if anyone listening wants to rescue something that is very good, very positive, very useful. From this interview. It’s that it’s not necessarily Olympics. It’s not necessarily that I was the first-ever World Champion for Peru. But I did this transition, which was extremely hard. And I came to the US. I had just recently married, again, talk about things that my parents thought were not excellent ideas, because, you know, how are you going to support your new family, you know, you don’t leave you’re not working. It’s like, and so we came to the US. And he was extremely hard. I started being a personal trainer in kind of like a volunteer coach, trying to teach people to hijab and trying to teach people how to work properly. I was interested in technology, but I didn’t exactly know what to do where to go. At that time, YouTube, perhaps the annexes there if it existed like it wasn’t as useful as it is today. So I would go into a local bookstore and read technology books since I call. And so I started writing, I wanted to, to have a blog, and I learned about Linux, getting started getting really interested into Linux. And so I wanted to learn more and more and more about that and started becoming sort of proficient in doing things in Linux, and fine, uh, found myself having the opportunity to work for a company that needed a system administrator, but just for a few hours. And so that that meant that Oh, wow, like this is this is, this is great, because I’m going to be able to just prove myself that I can bake and learning, I was just, I was just so hungry, so hungry, to, to prove myself to do these things, to learn to keep doing things. And it was like, it depends. Sometimes, you know, things are hard. Work. Work is hard. But definitely in those early years, I was super motivated, super motivated. And in very eager to learn in there were a few people that noticed, and where they cause tremendous impact in my career. And I owe them a lot.

Jason Baum 26:14
Who are those people? These?

Alfredo Deza 26:17
One, one of these guys. He’s an Argentinean. He’s a wonderful human being. He was the Chief Technologist for, for this large product that they were, they were green, a virtual world. He’s a Java specialist. He’s working from Argentina in 2000. Like, he’s a remote person working for an office here in Atlanta, and he’s in Argentina. And he, and he says, Hey, Alfredo, like, you know, I’ve tried, like, we’re doing these monitoring of the whole system. It’s three databases here, four web servers over there. And, and then we have application servers, I think they were like an hour two, or three. So it was like a very large virtual world thing in Java. And they wanted some scripting to be done to kind of like, put everything in maintenance mode. And there was a specific order that you need to shut down the application. And so the web servers would change the HTML and shows like a were, you know, kind of like a message saying, Hey, we’re doing some maintenance work, and in the databases, we need to follow then. And so it’s a special order, you need to do the thing. And, and he wanted me to script that. And I’ve never in my life program before. And so he’s like, Oh, you’re gonna do it, you’re, you know, it’s fine. And he’s named me some. Carlos Cole. And in Carlos said, you’re going to lease and say, Hey, Carlos, but like, I don’t, I don’t know how to burn like, no problem. I’m very busy. But every day, 15 minutes, I’ll give you 15 minutes early in the morning, you come in early? And I’ll answer any questions. I’ll tell you what to read and what to look for. And then we’ll rinse and repeat every day. And, and then we’ll you’ll make some progress, and we’ll get these done. And I said, okay, okay. All right, let’s do this. And I started doing that. And I feel horrible. He’s kind of like, you know, I don’t want to sound like, you know, I know, I know, languages. I know, Spanish is my Spanish and Portuguese kind of similar, but not Russian or not Chinese. So learning how to program is kind of like that, like, if, if I know Spanish, it doesn’t necessarily mean I know how to, you know, speak Chinese or read Chinese it will be and so it’s like, someone dropped me in Beijing. And I have to like, figure it out how to survive. And I was like, I don’t know anything. This is This is insane. I started having nightmares. I wasn’t sleeping because I felt like a lot of responsibility to, like, get this thing going. And one day I said, Okay, that’s it. I’m going to tell these guys tell my wife, I’m going to tell this guy I can’t do it anymore. I quit like he has to find someone else. And he said, Okay, you know, like I went there I talked to him was like, Yes, I’ll follow what’s going on. Like that’s it no more I can program I don’t know how to lead you’re, you’re asking me to do all these things. He seems very important. And I’m not making any progress. So I quit. And he said we what is it that you’re not understanding? Well, I don’t know what this thing is. I don’t know what that thing is. But that thing does. I’m very confused as I got one second. So that thing that you don’t understand you need to read this thing. And this sort of thing works like nice, okay. Yes. Okay. Okay. Do you get enough? Yes. Okay. See you tomorrow. I keep you going. Let me quit. He didn’t let me quit. He saw I was like these guys, you seriously. And we managed to do it. Like I completed the whole thing and I learned how to program in and you know, just fantastic. I mean, just super grateful I think in the Python for DevOps book that I wrote for Riley, I think it was 2019 I think we finished that. I actually just thank him because I mean he was essential for me great critical in my career to get me going.

Jason Baum 30:15
That’s awesome. Wow, we don’t You don’t every day have someone who’s refusing refuses to quit on you, even when you’re ready to quit yourself. Yeah, but refuses to quit on you. That’s, that’s pretty amazing probably sawn in you what you just described that you wish you could have in someone? Oh, yeah, you probably tick those boxes, I’m assuming for him. All right. Well, I mean, this has been absolutely amazing getting to meet you talk about your, your, your career, your life, I mean, you have outside of the box, I would say is the best way to describe your path that you went on, definitely not the standard. But my gosh, you must have learned so much that we haven’t even touched on, I think we scratched the surface. So I think people will have to get your books,

Alfredo Deza 31:03
you know, the books people think like, writing books is very good. Like, yeah, it’s a lot of work. Like, if you ever run a marathon is like running a marathon, and it never ends. And you’re like, oh, man, like, this is really rough. But, you know, I’m just genuinely happy to be here. And to kind of, like, convey the message of, you know, working hard and doing a lot of effort in any that ends up, you know, someone saying, Well, let me just search this dude around. Maybe he’s writing interesting books about, you know, DevOps or Python, or, you know, the last book was machine learning operations, which is kind of like related to DevOps for machine learning. I mean, that’s great. But, you know, if they don’t, that’s, that’s also good. Like, I’m here to just share the stories and in all those books full of stories, so if you like the stories here, then go find the books, I was gonna

Jason Baum 31:58
say, I want to hear more, I want to hear more stories, you’re definitely gonna have to come back. But I do have a final question for you. Yes, we always ask our guests one final question. We usually like them to dig deep a little think, okay, it’s used somewhat personal. But this one’s I think, relevant. So, if DevOps was an Olympic event, which sport or event would it be?

Alfredo Deza 32:28
You know, what, I think more than a sport, I would say, being a coach, I think that’s what I would say not necessarily like a specific event, a coach has to have like, lots of experience has to know like, what to apply to their, to their athletes, where to where do they excel, what is the right environment, and continuously plan, measure and operate on this bigger plan of doing things and events and competitions in try to keep improving things? So I would say a coach sounds more like a DevOps DevOps engineer.

Jason Baum 33:12
I think that’s a great answer. I think that’s wonderful. All right. Well, I mean, I’m afraid I can’t thank you enough for coming on and sharing some of those stories, you’re gonna have to come back because I have a ton more. So maybe when it’s the Summer Olympics, he’ll come back and talk to us again and share even more.

Alfredo Deza 33:30
Sure, that sounds great. Jason, I appreciate a ton being here anytime I can come back anytime happy to keep talking more about these things and again, just emphasizing it’s not about for me about you know having done well in sports, but you know, the message is like hey, just keep grinding keep doing excellent work be useful, be motivated, show genuine enthusiasm about things and I think especially here in the US I think people love that and they will just open the doors. I know I would like if someone knocks on violins like excited the will these things work and I do more Python or system administrators like it doesn’t matter. Like dude, you’re hired like what? Just Can I sign you right away? And before you know before before before we go like let me tell you these tiny, tiny short story sure I was helping out. They told us okay, you need to get some time aside to help this person. She’s in Latin America, she’s won someone to review her resume in Spanish. Can you help her out? And so I said, Okay, that’s fine. an inker resume. She said, I’m very motivated and I want to learn new things, and I asked him, what can you explain to me a little bit more about what you’re doing? Are you going to college? Yes, I’m studying In 90 minutes, okay, and what else? How’s your English? Oh, my English is I’m going twice a week to an English Institute and learning English. Okay, that’s great. And how’s your programming? Oh, well, I’m, I’m thinking twice a week classes to do learn Python. Okay, so you’re going to college as well. Yeah. And these resumes for is for what are you trying to do? Well, I’m doing, I’m doing part-time, part-time working at this company that is doing automation on email systems. Is a go whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on one second. So you’re going to college, you’re learning English, you’re learning how to code in, in, in Python. And you’re working part-time in a company. I mean, that that secret doesn’t say that you that you’re trying to, you know like to learn new things. Just you have to blow it out of the water and say, Hey, look at all of these things that I’m doing. And I’m in another country where things are already difficult. They look what I’m already trying to do. It’s like PCC insane. I would hire you yesterday. If it was up to me, this is credible. And I think that’s the type of people that we need. And if you’re one of those, well, that’s great. I’m pretty sure things are just going to work very well for you. That’s

Jason Baum 36:14
awesome. That’s awesome. We all need our own personal hype person behind us. I think sometimes, yeah, absolutely. Our own flavor for life. Awesome. Thanks so much, Alfredo. I really appreciate it. Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of DevOps Podcast. I’m going to end this episode the same way I always do encouraging you to become a member of DevOps Institute to get access to even more great resources just like this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and most of all, stay human, live long and prosper.

Narrator 36:44
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