Join Eveline Oehrlich, Michael Wagner, and Ian Evans to discuss cloud repatriation, company culture and much more.

Michael Wagner is the Co-Founder and CEO of Metify, a software startup based in Madison, Wisconsin. He worked in several senior management positions at IBM in Boston and San Diego before joining Red Hat in 2010. He was one of the creators of Red Hat’s Apex Partner Program for SI’s implementing OpenShift / Kubernetes solutions in his final role before launching Metify.

Ian Evans is the Co-Founder and CTO of Metify, a software startup based in Madison, Wisconsin. Ian’s broad expertise in cutting-edge infrastructure technology led him to multiple Sr. Architect positions with some of the world’s top technology companies including AWS, Verizon, Lockheed Martin, and Red Hat.

The Humans of DevOps Podcast is incredibly grateful to be voted one of the Best 25 DevOps Podcasts by Feedspot.

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Transcript

Narrator 00:02
You’re listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills, knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the skil framework.

Ian Evans 00:16
I think the other element that’s important from a business perspective, as we know, most businesses want to run hybrid workloads. The frustrating part for most of the businesses is they didn’t feel there was a really good standard to essentially control all these devices in the data centers.

Eveline Oehrlich 00:33
Welcome to the humans of DevOps Podcast. I’m Evelyn Erlich, Chief Research Officer at DevOps Institute. Some of you might remember what a SIS admin does, and others might not. I do and I remember the hard work when I was in that role. I was part of a giant data center consolidation many years ago, and I was a sysadmin in the year y2k Or year 2000. Okay, I know that dates me, but I don’t really care. However, when I hear people saying that the data center is dead, I have a very strong reaction because it’s not true. That is why I’ve invited two thought leaders and founders who have architects and design the solution, which focuses on the work in the data center. And today, as I said, we have two leaders which have created a very interesting solution called Metify, or a company called Metify. We’ll talk about the solution in a little bit. Let me introduce the two gentlemen. So first one, Michael Wagner, is a co founder and CEO of Metify. He began his career in 1995 as a network engineer, when he joined IBM while still attending the University of Wisconsin Madison. He worked in several senior management positions at IBM in Boston and San Diego. Before joining Red Hat in 2010. Michael was head of Channel Sales and alliances for North America at Red Hat. He was one of the creators of Red Hat hats, epics partner program for system integrators, implementing OpenShift Kubernetes solutions in his final role before launching Metify. The second person is Ian Evans. He is co founder and CTO of Metify. He began his career in 1999. As the director of IT for Quintus resorts. He got his first taste of working in software startup when he next joined was Zabi systems. As Director of Product Management at wasabi, Ian was deeply involved in all aspects of product development and strategy. In Sprott expertise in cutting edge infrastructure technology led him to multiple senior architect positions with some of the top technology companies on the planet including AWS, Verizon, Lockheed Martin, and Red Hat. Ian’s final role before launching Metify was principal architect for the global open solutions practice of WW Ts, and welcome to Our Podcast management. My wonderful gentleman. Thank you. I call this podcast a glimpse into two co founders journey for the data center a sounds a little bit like Star Trek. I am a Star Trek fan. So hopefully don’t you don’t mind. It is great to have you to with us today. And I’m excited for our audience to listen in. So we before we talk about Metify Ian, can you share with me how you two have decided to become co founders and create Metify? Where if you met give us the story?

Ian Evans 03:34
Sure. Yeah. So we, I’ve known Mike for about a little over four years. And the idea of what we generally started working on a bunch of different technologies around the data center. And you know, in our respective roles, we really saw a lot of limitations around getting the product out to market and doing it in a way that was kind of free of obstacles. So of course that started the the discussion around starting our own company, and starting to figure out how we start to tackle the issues in the data center, but build the product to basically facilitate what we feel need to be done as quickly as possible. So we got our start working on all those different technologies. You brought it all into a single product plan. And then we started to make some determinations on what areas of that data center we’re going to tackle first. And that really led to the creation of Metify. And the wonderful product that we have called Mojo.

Eveline Oehrlich 04:40
So medified name and does it stand for something? It does.

Mike Wagner 04:47
Yeah, so Metify it’s a portmanteau combination of two words so metal and simplified. So we put the first couple letters of metal last couple of letters that simplify, and you get

Eveline Oehrlich 05:02
Metify. Great love that. I bet that was a variety of cycles of thinking, which ideation around the name. That’s fantastic. So, Michael, what does Metify do? What is and what is so unique about Metify?

Mike Wagner 05:18
Yeah, so we went against the grain, we saw a need in private cloud and data center space, in particular. And as the sort of definition of what a data center is, was quickly evolving, you know, the needs of system administrators, the needs of folks that are in infrastructure and operations, don’t go away. And as that great little meme that was floating around and still is, you know, what is the cloud, it’s just somebody else’s computer. And that’s, that’s the reality of it, you know. So for us, we recognize that the hyper scalars have done a great job of automating their infrastructure. And they did such a great job that, you know, companies all around the world decided, well, let’s just get rid of this problem, when we’re starting off. While the data centers in most of the Fortune 1000, companies really didn’t change all that much. If you look at historical spend, data center, data centers have grown, as far as server spend, and as well as total megawatts, even in the private data centers have grown consistently, every year. And that hasn’t changed. Now, cloud and hyper scalars have grown much faster. But the fact that the data centers are still out there is a testament to the fact that you know, fortune 1000 companies, companies that reach a certain size, the economies of having their own hardware makes sense. So it’s that kind of question about do I rent? Or do I buy? And at some point, it certainly makes sense to buy. So yeah, so what we did was we wanted to make that incredibly simple. We wanted to create it so that you know, the hard work that say Googles and Amazons have done to make public cloud, incredibly consumable, super easy to spin up a server, and get the exact hardware profile that you want. We wanted to make that as easy as possible for private organizations to do behind their firewall. And also, you know, there was a big switch going on, that really was the impetus for launching things in where we got our first use case was right on the edge. So of course, the development of 5g and the need to move, compute and storage closer to the customer themselves, really led to us, you know, creating a couple of different use cases for our product. And I think that’s helped to drive growth overall. So bottom line is we just wanted to make accessing the hardware, discovering it, provisioning it, and maintaining it, as simple as possible treat it as a first class citizen, if you will, all the investment had really gone AppStack, you know, into applications and application frameworks and DevOps, you know, and in general, like OpenShift, and Kubernetes, and Docker. That’s where all the interest was. But the fact that, you know, everyone was still toiling down at the server level, and at the chip level, to get these things to talk and get them organized that way they need to with the right access, and governance, compliance, all those things still existed. It’s just somebody else’s computer and call it a cloud. But at the end of the day, it’s a bunch of servers.

Eveline Oehrlich 08:27
Yep, I understand when you said that you went exactly the opposite to where everybody else’s has been going. And particularly during the pandemic, people were thinking, Oh, we got to move to the cloud. And they took those two years or whatever how many months it has, and they did it. But there’s still a whole bunch of and I wish we could quantify it. How much is still out there. I’m sure Gartner has some data, in terms of how many data centers are still out there. Alright, great. So where are you going with the vision for Metify? What is what’s the short term? And are whatever short term means short term to me mean sometimes a day? But I don’t mean tomorrow, but you know, in six months from now, in a year from now, what’s your vision forward?

Mike Wagner 09:13
Yeah, so we have an established channel program. So that’s a big part of what we do. We’ve got incredible business partners that we work with. But from a vision perspective, it’s really taking the product to a broader audience. We currently our installation process is something that we’re working on right now, because we want to make it push button, you know, immediately deployable from our site. So that’s a big step for us. But overall, it’s just a matter of, you know, continuing to do what we’re doing and make more customers aware of it. The footprint that we have right now really covers most sectors. So we’ve had a great opportunity to work with folks in financial services as well as media and entertainment, banking, insurance, you name it, we’ve kind of had Uh, we’re working with those customers. So that’s a, that’s a great thing. So you know, from an execution perspective, we want to make sure that we’re doing the things that we want it to do really well, which is the discovery, provisioning and maintaining of servers themselves. And then expanding that out as we grow into really all of the edge use cases and IoT sensors. And the best part about where we’re headed is, it’s defined already, for us, essentially, we leverage open standards. And so the open source communities, and the open standards, communities that made our product possible, are really defining directionally where we go. And from a r&d perspective, that’s something I learned from Red Hat, there’s really no beating the open source research and development model, there’s no beating the open source software development model, because your r&d is essentially handled for you by the community, you know, and as the community demands something, it gets rolled into the open standard. And then we make it almost instantly accessible inside of our product after we test it and make sure that it works across different hardware profiles. So that’s, that’s one of the great benefits of having a redhead background is that it’s, it showed me the power of open source, and the power of open communities overall, to really help drive product change and making sure that you’re not heading down technical rabbit holes that aren’t gonna lead anything, you know, these are all community driven. And so whenever you’re taking your marching orders from people demanding features, you know that there’s going to be an audience for it.

Eveline Oehrlich 11:42
They’re a different culture than it was when I started out in it, which was 90, in the 90s. I’m glad we’re here. And that’s very beautiful. I keep telling my daughters, hey, you should go into it. But maybe I had too many ITIL books on my nightstand, and they didn’t want to do that. So there are different topics today, but so very successful young ladies. So culture is everything. It says on your whiteboard, Michael, in your office, little word was telling me that. What, how does that translate in your day to day because for us, the DevOps Institute, you know, it’s just human angle. We forget, there’s a lot of talk about tech, and all these different things. But the culture and how we work and how people come together is essential. Otherwise, we’ll basically are machines. So tell me a little bit about how this culture is everything translates at your day to day Metify? With your coat with your customers, your clients and everything else?

Mike Wagner 12:48
Yeah, so that’s great. Yeah. So from a culture perspective, we really lead with three core elements, if you will. And I think, you know, culture evolves over time in an organization. But as a software startup we came from large is large enterprises in the past, and we saw a few things that we thought, okay, if we launched our own, we know exactly what we’d want. So that was another very cool thing of doing a startup is you get to kind of build it to your dream, right? And eat and I, our cultural wants, in terms of what a company should be, we’re just perfectly aligned. So essentially, it’s number one is kindness. So no egos no pretense, no bad attitudes, right. If you’re not having fun, I always have the saying, if you’re not enjoying it, you’re probably in the wrong job. And, you know, you should consider other options, right? We enjoy a greatly coding and we love what we’re doing, we, you know, the hardware in general. And that intersection of where hardware and software meet is just a really cool space to be. So kindness is number one, transparency is number two, and transparency, because that enables trust, right, and without trust, you don’t have much, especially in a small organization. And you can boil that down to individual teams if you’re in a larger organization. But for us the transparency, you know, we’ve got a small group of folks here trying to make this dream happen. And that have made the product an award winning product now, and you know, some some amazing customers. So it really has to be there, from the very beginning. And throughout the build process. So you know, essentially being able to see what they’ve done, you know, let’s take a look at your code for today. Right? How did things go? Always checking in So transparency is number two, and number three would be consistency. And that’s really, you can view that as essentially a self discipline, right, and the will to collectively work hard towards a common goal. And, you know, the excitement around In our product Mojo platform, and you know, the fact that we have some really cool customers, and that we’re working with some, some, some of the largest global players in their respective spaces right now is really exciting. So I think it’s much easier to kind of create the collective vision now that the product is built, and everyone sees the potential around it. And so it’s, those are the three main ones, though kindness, transparency, and consistency. And as long as you have those things in place, you know, you can kind of take on the world.

Eveline Oehrlich 15:35
Yeah, I’m sure you get to read that culture is everything when you visit Microsoft Office, anything you want to add to that,

Ian Evans 15:41
I think might hit all the the major ones for us. I mean, I agree with them. You Humility is a big one for me. You know, I think that that goes a very long ways. And I think if you get the right people in place, and they enjoy their jobs, like he’d said, they’re doing great work, you know, the, the, the ability to manage becomes a lot easier, you know, you don’t have to engage in a lot of micromanagement and stuff like that. So it’s all about, you know, just the attitude, this the selection of the person in the role and allowing them to kind of spread their wings, you know, I’m allowing them to take all the cumulative skills that they’ve gathered over the years and feel that strong spirit of innovation, and push it forward into in the product. And I think when you do that, you get the best elements of everything, from a company perspective, a product perspective, market readiness, all of all of those things come together into a great package. So yeah, I definitely agree with everything he mentioned with maybe those those, those couple extra things from from a company management and cultural perspective and all those things.

Narrator 16:48
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Eveline Oehrlich 17:22
Great. That makes me think of one of my former colleagues at Forrester used to say actually two of them to steal some research, excellent research, they’re at Forrester Research. He used to say, happy employees, happy customers. And that goes for all kinds of products, right? So if we have happiness and enjoyment, then that translates into happy customers, because we enjoy what we’re doing. And this is in your case, and in anybody else’s case, even flying, or driving or ordering or anything like that. So great. Okay. Yeah. And

Ian Evans 18:00
I want to add one quick thing, and that is, you mentioned happy customers peace. And that, that that is one of the biggest things for us is that we, we felt that the products being introduced to the market were way too complex. And you know, and that obviously leads into positive customer experience, you know, we want it to be as seamless and easy to use as possible. And that to us translates to happy customers.

Eveline Oehrlich 18:24
Yep. Ah, that makes me think of something else. I wanted to ask you community outreach, you guys have done something around, making sure that there is basic access to internet and things in rural areas called something called photon Connect. Is that correct? Can one of you elaborate on what that is? Because I think that is beautiful when I heard about that.

Mike Wagner 18:50
Yeah. So a few years ago, when COVID hit, Ian lives in the, in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains. And that might be one of the most challenging places to get broadband signals into that I’ve ever seen personally, I’m in Madison, Wisconsin, and comparatively, you know, it’s farm pastures out here. It’s pretty simple. But we still have a lot of rural broadband challenges as well. It’s surprising when you discovered just how, how widespread the problem is across North America still. But when COVID hit there was some teachers in particular that were having trouble connecting and being able to have their classes you know, delivered in a way that was actually usable for the kids. So we identified a few of those teachers and reached out to the school board and we’re able to get them hooked up at no charge to an Ian actually developed an amazing product that we’ve gone on to work with commercially and have some some really cool customers that we’re working with on the come martial side now, commercial enterprise side. And yeah, it’s a it’s called photon router. And it’s a it’s a highly tuned customer premise piece of equipment that takes care of all of the streaming difficulties that you would discover it most people face with much even higher bandwidth coming into the home. So yeah, that was that was the key, we established our own ISP, and essentially got these teachers online, so they could teach the classes with some degree of performance and actually be able to interact with the kids and use the the Zoom classes, and the features that that the the school board was using. The district was using to try and enable the remote learning that was in place during COVID.

Eveline Oehrlich 20:48
Beautiful, very noble, great, great idea. All right, cloud repatriation, we’ve seen it we’re hearing it to to, you know, some fin ops or cost observability organizations are repatriating out of the cloud. Not all not everything. But we’ve, we’ve seen it in DevOps Institute and talked to all ambassadors and they see it as well. So in what are some use cases, you’ve seen what Cloud repatriation makes sense? And, and I like you, too, I know you are. I’m gonna call you a nerd. But I mean it as a compliment, not as derogative at

Ian Evans 21:28
all. That’s okay. I get called that a lot.

Eveline Oehrlich 21:33
Yeah, Miko calls you on the road all the time. Okay. But instead of looking at it from the technical perspective, I’d like to like you to focus a little bit on the business value perspective, in terms of cloud repatriation, what are some use cases you’ve seen?

Ian Evans 21:48
So I think the dynamics have changed a bit. You know, one of the things that I’ve noticed immediately is, you’re starting to see miniaturization in terms of hardware footprint, right? So things that when notoriously kind of take, you know, three rows, or more, you know, for large workloads, as an example, those are things that you’re consolidating down into one or two racks, or even less now, because of the core counts and the efficiencies that are brought forth with new server technologies. So, you know, when it comes to a real estate perspective, looking at it from a spanned, it becomes a much easier scenario for a lot of companies, because they can look at that as footprint reduction, less building size, less cooling infrastructure, so forth, all these translate into lower costs. So what was a major obstacle before in that regard is is now been, you know, largely fixed with the efficiencies and the consolidation of hardware. So that’s one major driver there. And it makes it possible for people to put very powerful workloads into smaller spaces, so they don’t need huge data centers to do that. I think the other element that’s important from a business perspective is we know most businesses want to run hybrid workloads. The frustrating part for most of the businesses is they didn’t feel there was really a really good standard to essentially control all these devices in the data center. So the MTF redfish standard is a great example of an improvement in that area, and that it basically creates a set of extensible schemas and purposes, it reaches into servers and storage and other elements in the data center. And really, the overall goal is to bring things into a standard unified API that’s easy to understand, easy to consume. And above all else, is accessible through a multitude of different OEMs. So customer puts in a command to power on a server, that would be the same command across a Dell HP super micro platform, and so forth. That’s the overall goal. So with those pieces coming in, from a business perspective, the elements of automation are more achievable, as long as you have a toolset that accommodates that. And that’s really where Mojo came in is we wanted to build that platform to use that standard. So people can orchestrate automate hardware in an in a very agnostic way. So that those those drivers really help out quite a bit. And I think also there’s kind of the shock with Cloud spend as well, and it’s relatively hard to control. And you know, a lot of customers, they put workloads in there and they have certain expectations and some of those costs been out of control. And next thing, you know, you’re locked into specific technologies, maybe this public cloud provider has and the spends very high so customers are looking at ways with the things I mentioned earlier, using those things, bringing it all together and bringing workloads back into you know, kind of like a smaller on prem type of footprint.

Eveline Oehrlich 24:44
Yep, makes sense. scuze me, I am doing some research or we at the DevOps Institute have done five years of research now on it upskilling or we call it upskilling at 2023. We just have a report public session we share a lot of the findings there the top two domain skills or capabilities, which are must have a process skills, you know, be it ITIL it for it DevOps, agile scrum, you know, name them, and technical skills. Those are the two top most important skill domains. When we think about this topic of moving workloads, and or data back to on premise on the skills in a data center, that’s one thing, I think that’s one challenge, I can see already. When we everybody wants to have clouds skills, and has cloud skills and container skills and all of that wonderful stuff. The second one political considerations if I’m the CTO, and I decided two years ago, five years ago, we’re gonna go all cloud. And I’m still around. And now I have to say, I’m sorry, but I think we need to move certain things back. That could be carried over. Maybe. Those are just two aspects of cloud repatriation conversations I’ve had with clients and and others, Michael, to you. Have you had conversations with your clients on Cloud repatriation, and hearing other things? And if not other, maybe comment on skills versus cost and political savviness?

Mike Wagner 26:21
Yeah, okay. So, couple good threads there. So I’ll start with the discussion around skills. And that was really one of the core reasons why we developed the product. You know, we saw Ian saw a need, and we’ve both had the opportunity to go to data centers of some of the top companies globally, and you see the way they’re running things. And you recognize that there’s a few people that really hold the keys to the castle. And they’re from a hardware perspective, which is, that’s an exposure. And then being able to knowledge transfer, how things are done internally is also a very difficult thing. So we wanted to create really a first class citizen, if you will, a first class application that makes that intersection of people and hardware as simple as possible. And that’s where Mojo platform really came in. And Ian has a navy background he worked in with some Navy contractors and the KISS principle that keep it simple, stupid principle around, alright, what can we do to build a tool that’s just very easy to use very intuitive, and handles all of this sort of manually heavy, and very error prone activity that’s often left to individuals. And in particular, we’re talking BIOS upgrades, firmware upgrades, remote provisioning of operating systems, remote booting of operating systems wiping of hard drives. So you know, this, this low level, ability to do what you need to do from a server maintenance perspective, just was a glaring problem and having lived through it, you know, he just wanted to create sort of the dream tool, if you will. So handling that skills gap, and being able to allow companies to take those resources and repurpose them into more valuable roles, is, was an important consideration for us. And one of the core reasons we built motion platform. So you know, we want to make it so that anybody can come in with minimal training on that tool, and be able to build private clouds build, you know, the the pools that are necessary, provide the infrastructure controls, the governance, the are back, all the things that are required to have a well maintained infrastructure that provides what your developers need, at with just a few clicks. And that, that we’ve managed to do. So we’re excited about having sort of that phase one of the project if you will, phase one of our, our software proven and, and really loved by our customers. And the next piece of it, the use cases, or the use cases really came to us again, because you know, open standards. We have Major League Baseball is a big customer of ours. And as an example, you know, they’re a hybrid company. They have stadiums all over North America, and data centers, you know, the overall definition of even what a data center is, is just stretching and changing as we speak. And that’s, you know, as we get closer to the edge and as the demands of what compute and storage need to do, because the optimization of the architecture itself requires it. We just wherever the workload needs to be, we’re fine with it. So Cloud repatriation, yes. It’s happening also from just a application perspective, or they’re like, well, we we did a lift and shift because we wanted to get rid of the optics of having a data center and the people right, and then they recognize holy moly, there is or I should say the cap expenditure. And there’s an incredible operating expenditure in the cloud. And there’s definitely a break even point of when you recognize that, with the miniaturization and advances in technology and advances in chip power and the shrinking of storage, you can do all those things in house for a lot cheaper. And there’s, you know, myriad cases where you can look those up online and just see all of the money that’s being saved across the board. And we ourselves, have done some really cool work in that regard as well. So the stuff that Major League Baseball is doing is a hybrid cloud, we partnered with Google on it. And it’s just incredible to see all that’s enabled at the edge sitting on top of Mojo’s provisioned servers, and then it bursts up into GCP 7.2 terabytes of data per game. And they’ve just got an amazing amount of really cool data that’s pulled in there for all of their fans to interact with. And see in real time, you know, how far Aaron judges home run went when he hit his 62nd. One, you know, so it’s just amazing all the things they can track even the speed of the ball as it spins off the pitchers hand and, you know, more data than you can imagine, gets loaded up and, and used by fans every game. So yeah, it’s the it’s the use cases themselves that have really brought this sometimes cloud repatriation, sometimes just natural, new build, you know, Greenfield space where we have to change the way the solution is architected, to really get the option, the optimal footprint to deliver the best experience possible to our customers.

Ian Evans 31:40
Yeah, wait, I was gonna add in quick thing on that, you know, we also understand that, in order to have a successful product that works well in, in a hybrid setting, or, you know, in a private data center type of setting to automate different hardware, you really need to make sure that people that are coming from the public cloud, find the tool relatively familiar, you know, so from a DevOps perspective, you know, we wanted to make sure that we weren’t introducing something that seemed foreign or you know, monolithic, it’s kind of that like, fine balance, you know, we want to make sure that we keep it very simple. We also want to make sure that it’s also familiar, and, you know, if, if a DevOps person is working on our system, and they prefer to use Ansible, they can use Ansible, they want to use TerraForm, they can certainly use TerraForm. So we want to keep it very open in that respect, as well, you know, bring your own tools, bring your own servers, you know, flexible platform, you know, very much common in terms of things that they would see, within the public cloud, a lot of the terms are the same. So we really worked hard to make sure that the tool is recognizable to people that are coming from those environments, but also, you know, very, very much usable when they’re using both of those environments at the same time.

Eveline Oehrlich 32:58
Great points. Excellent learning. Super. All right. Last question. And this has nothing to do with any of what we’ve talked about. Well, maybe I’ll leave it up to you, gentlemen. What do you guys do for fun?

Mike Wagner 33:13
Oh, boy. So I guess I’ll go first. I love music. I mean, I jokingly, Ian and I always joke around that this is all just a front for us to be able to put our album out once our company goes public. So but we’ll see. Right. So I’ve been playing bass for many years. And so that’s that’s something a big hobby of mine, for sure. I also play chess. And I have five kids. So that Oh, really busy. Yeah.

Eveline Oehrlich 33:49
Yes. Excellent. And you Ian.

Ian Evans 33:52
Yeah. So we might have some similarities in terms of things we like to do for fun. I mean, music is a big thing for me. I’ve done it for a long time I play bass, I play guitar. So I enjoy that. I also just really enjoy working within the community. So a lot of my time my free time is spent on you know, things we talked like photon connects Community Improvement Project, I want to see how I can improve outcomes for people in the community. And I’m always looking for challenges, you know, things that have been challenges for a very long period of time. Nobody’s addressed those. I love those types of things. So when I see them, I tried to address them. And if my background in what I’ve done in my background can help push those things forward within the community. That’s one thing I spend a lot of time for on and then the other ones are animal welfare. I’m very much involved in the community when it comes to wildlife and sustaining that and ensuring that you know, there’s some involvement in the communities involved in sustaining the natural wildlife ecosystem here as well.

Eveline Oehrlich 34:57
Excellent. Gentlemen, this has been Fantastic. You guys have enriched my life significantly today. And I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation as well. Thank you again, for all of the learning and the sharing. And your last part they are on what you do for fun.

Ian Evans 35:15
It’s been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Eveline Oehrlich 35:18
We’ve been talking to Michael Wagner, co founder and CEO of benify. And Ian Evans, co founder and CTO of Metify. Gentlemen, again, thank you very much for your time joining me today on humans of DevOps podcast and have a great Metify journey, I’ll say.

Mike Wagner 35:35
Thanks very much.

Eveline Oehrlich 35:37
Yes, humans of DevOps podcast is produced by DevOps Institute. Our audio production team includes Julia pape, Daniel Newman, Schultz and Brandon Lee. Shout out to those colleagues of mine do a wonderful job also at their day, and recording and making sure things are well. I’m humans of DevOps podcast executive producer Evelyn earlyish. If you would like to join us on the podcast, please contact us at humans of DevOps podcast at DevOps institute.com. I’m abolutely. Talk to you soon.

Narrator 36:12
Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of DevOps podcast. Don’t forget to join our global community to get access to even more great resources like this. Until next time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself. You belong